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Pokémon Games => Games General => Topic started by: Joe_Pokemon2015- MEGA RAYQUAZA! on March 31, 2013, 09:24
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Well, I believe Pokemon has becoming darker every generation. Don't believe me? Go to this page. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarkerAndEdgier/VideoGames)
In Gen 1 and 2 you just fight against Team Rocket and there's nothing special. By Gen 3 you fight against a gang that want to destroy the world, by gen 4 you got Team Galactic who want to create a new universe and now, we're in Gen 5, and the leader of Team Plasma is a psychopath who abused his own kid.
Do you think Pokemon should delve into even darker themes? I mean, most of the people who played Pokemon in Gen 1 and 2 are all in college or are adults now with a job. And we have kids coming in as new Pokemon fans.
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For the main series? I really like the progression of it they've had thus far, I really hadn't given it much thought myself so I guess that points to it kind of feeling natural (or maybe me just not paying enough attention oop).
IMO, Colosseum was an excellent example of "Pokemon going dark" (BADUMTSSH) and I would love love love to see them make another like it- I think XD was a good sequel to it, but it didn't hold up as much of the same attitude because Wes was an adult *and* an ex-bad guy meanwhile Michael was a cute little kid with a hover scooter.
so in short I don't think they should do anything radically different or make deliberately grittier steps in the main games but for a side game? YEAUH.
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Ehhh... I don't think it has to. Team Rocket was actually the darkest organization we've had so far; they sold Pokemon on a black market without the police doing anything about it, they force children into their organization by way of threatening them with their Pokemon (think Nugget Bridge), and their leader has more power than nearly anyone in the region, save for the Elite Four, who didn't even try to step in and stop them at ANY point until their leader was gone.
Team Plasma, on the other hand, wanted to free Pokemon from oppression... not exactly as dark, in my opinion.
Regardless, I wouldn't necessarily be opposed, but I don't think it has to happen either.
Edit: I actually think the opposite of the teams, now that I think about it. They've grown less and less intimidating with each new game. Magma/Aqua was cool, but both of them were short-sighted to the point of being silly. Galactic was more just... insane, and the leader of the team gave you the means to stop their plan when they gave you the Master Ball, so I can't even take them seriously. Plasma opinion above.
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I don't think Pokemon has really gotten darker, just more involved.
I mean, you can look at any aspect of Pokemon and interpret it as dark. The idea of capturing monsters and making them fight for example.
Team Rocket's first appearance showed them as being particularly 'dark'.
I think the reason behind B/W being different in storyline is that each rival group had to be worse than the one that followed. Stealing Pokemon -> Changing the earth -> Changing time and space -> Where else do you go? Plasma were interesting because their final goal wasn't as obvious as good vs evil, they convinced people to release their Pokemon. That's scarier because you're up against something which isn't necessarily inherently evil, which is what made Plasma an interesting villainous team.
No, I don't think it should be getting 'darker' though. The Pokemon world is too cooperative for something like that, making it go 'dark and edgy' would just be predictable and boring. I think Pokemon can do fine without resorting to extremes of 'Happy and cute' or 'Dark and Edgy' Pokemon has always just been itself.
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The side games tend to be a little "darker" than the main series, huh? Second Mystery Dungeon and, like Jedim mentioned, Pokemon Colosseum (only played so much of the latter though, rented it ages ago) If you want dark in the main series, you can always read some of the Pokedex entries, haha.
Seriously, though, "adult themes" is a bit extreme. Pokemon can be a little more mature without going full dark and edgy. Like Turner said, there are ways to make things engaging. Why, as recent as BW2, just... look at what Hugh went through. Once you get further in the game, you really feel that just by listening to his theme. (Well, I do, anyway) On a side note, Ghetsis is just plain creepy.
It makes me wonder how X and Y are gonna do things, though. At the very least, DNA is probably involved, and will likely be a big point in the plot. It's too early to tell, anyway, but I doubt we'll get anything radically different from previous installments, in terms of whether it's "dark" or not. If things ever go that route, Game Freak would likely make it a subtle progression, as opposed to a full shift.
All this talk about dark, where's my Dark-type Gym?
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The side games tend to be a little "darker" than the main series, huh? Second Mystery Dungeon and, like Jedim mentioned, Pokemon Colosseum (only played so much of the latter though, rented it ages ago) If you want dark in the main series, you can always read some of the Pokedex entries, haha.
Seriously, though, "adult themes" is a bit extreme. Pokemon can be a little more mature without going full dark and edgy. Like Turner said, there are ways to make things engaging. Why, as recent as BW2, just... look at what Hugh went through. Once you get further in the game, you really feel that just by listening to his theme. (Well, I do, anyway) On a side note, Ghetsis is just plain creepy.
It makes me wonder how X and Y are gonna do things, though. At the very least, DNA is probably involved, and will likely be a big point in the plot. It's too early to tell, anyway, but I doubt we'll get anything radically different from previous installments, in terms of whether it's "dark" or not. If things ever go that route, Game Freak would likely make it a subtle progression, as opposed to a full shift.
All this talk about dark, where's my Dark-type Gym?
I think considering we've had 4 games in a psuedo-Japan setting we're probably going to get a small cluster of games in other settings. We had America/New York with Unova. I love the way it told a story within that setting using very American cliches - Clay goes from simple gold miner gym-leader to rich real estate merchant in the space of two years. It's like a metaphor for the American dream. Roxie is the misunderstood rockstar and Ellysa is a striving model. It's all about trying to be someone or following your dreams of fame.
I think X/Y will be the start of a more 'European world', there will be lots of art and old fables. One of the main hunches that we will get a new 'fairy' type is the emphasis on enchanted forests. The new Eevee short is entirely based in the enchanted forest where they meet Sylveon. Xerneas is shown on the trailer as being in an enchanted forest of sorts and it would fit with the norse mythology or whatever we've seen so far.
I'm not sure how the X/Y chromosomes thing will work into this though.
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I can see why someone might consider that the series has become increasingly dark over time, but I myself would substitute darker for controversial, in terms of plot line and general events. I would agree that more dark ingredients have been added lately though, especially the whole thing about Ghetsis being a complete psychopath.
The first generation really only had the fact that there was an evil team attempting to take over the world, which although dark, was not controversial.
The second generation had some touches of controversy, such as the forcing the evolution of the magikarp in the lake of rage and the use of pokemon to power generators. "Should people really use animals to obtain our goals?" appears to be the issue questioned by these games.
The third generation had an easy to understand induction to thought about global warming and generic weather fluctuations, and the consequences of and importance of the changing of the weather. This was, and still is, a topic of great controversy. However, it was based in science and so there was an easier method to attain a conclusion which you could successfully argue for.
In the fourth generation we are introduced to the prospect of a 'New order' in which one person has complete control, as well as the idea that humans could ultimately change time and space to their own liking. This is more of a philosophical and political controversy: "What is the correct way to rule and for the world to be operated?" and "Just because we can do something should we?". In addition to these, for those of a religious turn of mind, "Should humanity be 'playing god?".
Nearly there. In the fifth generation, the controversial subjects are mainly moral and philosophical. This gen has questioned the essential correctness of the capturing of pokemon in order to battle. It also forces a questioning of the old dichotomy of whether using foul means to obtain a pure goal is right.
In my case, I have come to deduce that the pokemon games have been formulated recently to attempt to spawn a thoughtful characteristics of the mind of those who play it (specifically the younger audience) and what better way to do it than to include controversial topics in the game?
As for the upcoming generation... I'm firmly with Turner in that I believe it will be about DNA. Perhaps the plot will revolve around genetic engineering? That would be interesting...
As to whether the main games should become darker... I'm a little uncertain. I personally would love a dark plot, but it would kind of turn the target audience of the games on its' head. If it did happen, I can see a large drop in sales occurring, and I shudder to think of them halting the series due to loss of sales.
I'm also of the opinion that the darkness should remain primarily with the side games. I loved the shadow games... I wish they'd hurry up and make a new one!
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I don't see the fascination some fans have with making pokemon "dark" or whatever. Sure it might be cool and all but I for one like pokemon because it's fun and nice and friendship conquers all and fluff like that, it's a nice diversion from my boring adult life.
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In my case, I have come to deduce that the pokemon games have been formulated recently to attempt to spawn a thoughtful characteristics of the mind of those who play it (specifically the younger audience) and what better way to do it than to include controversial topics in the game?
As for the upcoming generation... I'm firmly with Turner in that I believe it will be about DNA. Perhaps the plot will revolve around genetic engineering? That would be interesting...
DNA? So will Genesect porbably appear in the sixth generation as well as some new Pokemon with its DNA changed artificially? Because that DNA thing had been explored before in Pokemon Black 2 and White 2.
As to whether the main games should become darker... I'm a little uncertain. I personally would love a dark plot, but it would kind of turn the target audience of the games on its' head. If it did happen, I can see a large drop in sales occurring, and I shudder to think of them halting the series due to loss of sales.
I'm also of the opinion that the darkness should remain primarily with the side games. I loved the shadow games... I wish they'd hurry up and make a new one!
I think that we should bring some adult themes into Pokemon- not immediately, but gradually. Most of the Pokemon fans when they were kids are now in college, and we are getting some new blood, who are now probably raised with games such as the Call of Duty series and are looking into Pokemon.
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There has always been blood in media, it's not what Pokemon is about, and definitely not what it needs. There is a whole new generation of kids growing up with Pokemon starting with 4th generation (my cousin included) and even 5th generation. Kind of a pointless debate, really - Pokemon simply isn't going to start including blood into their games.
I don't think it's necessarily darker themes or even more mature content that Pokemon should explore, but different issues of right and wrong, as they always have. Pokemon supports a strong moral compass within children, and in today's society, it's something that everyone could use a bit more of.
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I don't think it's necessarily darker themes or even more mature content that Pokemon should explore, but different issues of right and wrong, as they always have. Pokemon supports a strong moral compass within children, and in today's society, it's something that everyone could use a bit more of.
You couldn't say it better.
Though I would have to disagree on one point there: for me, Pokemon needed another character ike N and Ghetsis, but for this generation.
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On one level, I think Pokemon is getting more... Developed, shall we say. Which I like, because I always found Team Rocket fairly boring villains - they didn't really have a direction or a plan, they just. Kind of wanted to do bad stuff. And then you had Magma and Aqua who were fun but a little basic, and then Galactic who were Team Rocket WITH PROPER MOTIVATION, and then finally Plasma who were an evil team with proper motivation and plan and power and structure which was awesome.
But darker? I don't want that. I can't stand how nowadays 'dark is cool', and nothing can be cheerful or happy unless it's just stupidly naive or optimistic or something. We do still have room for some childish optimism in our lives, it isn't all just doom and gloom and blood... And I really enjoy that Pokemon reflects this. I want them to keep developing and maturing their plotlines but without having to resort to dark and gritty - and in that way, show people that a good plotline isn't just throwing in as much blood, death and tragedy at the viewer as you can, and coasting on horror value. Cheese and fluff has just as much place in society.
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Perhaps Pokémon can just mock the whole "dark and gritty" settings common in other games in later generations, and criticise it as subtle as possible. After all, "darker themes" don't necessarily meant "blood and gore".
There should be an antagonistic team that do something ten times worse than Team Plasma, a rival that had issues and still have no blood and gore.
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I think that there needs to be more adrenaline 'oh my gosh this is frighting' moments, without gore since, you know, it's for kids. Kinda like how it was when Ghesis was trying to freeze the protagonist. I don't always want the protag to win outright. Make them struggle. Maybe get captured. Maybe temporarily lose their pokemon and have to catch/obtain new ones or something (but then get back their pokemon, kinda like a rental thing). Maybe with a possession plot... based more on the Pokemon being used than the trainers, perhaps. So much could have been done with yamask.
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Team Plasma were the most frightening team of all in many ways and they were frightening in a way that was different from 'Using a Pokemon to destroy the region/world/fabric of time and space'.
Team Plasma were frightening because they tried to undermine the happiest part of the Pokemon world using the power of suggestion and propaganda, they presented a moral dilemma which threatened the world much more than a single legendary that can be defeated.
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Counter-idea: Pokemon hasn't necessarily gotten darker, it's just gotten more obvious about it.
I mean, compare Team Rocket and Team Plasma. The effect of what they're doing to an average Pokemon trainer are similar: take them away. With Team Plasma, that's just as much through propaganda as convincing them, but there's some noble goals and little direct damage. Team Rocket, instead, just steals all these Pokemon, mutilates them for profit (remember GSC's Slowpoketails?), causes random destruction through its evolution beams and such, and generally causes as much harm as long as it leads them to profit.
Follow-up Team Plasma in B2W2 is slightly different, but its plans arguably leads to as much damage as Team Rocket's, with at least occasional remorse shown. They're still not using dead Pokemon or kill or mutilate them (as Team Rocket is referenced to do). To quote Jessie from recent anime "We do want we want because we can."
The reason you notice it more might partially because you're paying more attention, but also because the game spends more and more time to point it out to us. B2W2 is probably worst for this, considering its use of white Team Plasma to point this all out to us, but look at the length of any of the bad guys' speeches in the last two generations. Cyrus in Platinum is prone to this as well.
The other part of this is that we're getting developer commentary now. We've gotten very little, to no, background on any of this for Team Rocket and that's been kept even in the remakes. On the other hand, we've had these detailed commentaries on N (including the reveal of his ridiculous name) and it takes away most ambiguity in favour of explaining what's going on. It's not my favourite way of working - some subtext works far better than a writer spelling out everything that's gong on and especially in the case of N it turned an ambigious character with a more interesting redemption arc that actually required some thought into the how and why into just another hero whose power level seems quite Mary Sue-ish on behalf of some of Pokemon's writers.
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I mean, compare Team Rocket and Team Plasma. The effect of what they're doing to an average Pokemon trainer are similar: take them away. With Team Plasma, that's just as much through propaganda as convincing them, but there's some noble goals and little direct damage. Team Rocket, instead, just steals all these Pokemon, mutilates them for profit (remember GSC's Slowpoketails?), causes random destruction through its evolution beams and such, and generally causes as much harm as long as it leads them to profit.
Consider the idea that Pokémon gets more obvious about the dark themes. Because Team Rocket cut tails of Slowpokes, was the 2nd Generation darker than the 5th Generation?
The reason you notice it more might partially because you're paying more attention, but also because the game spends more and more time to point it out to us. B2W2 is probably worst for this, considering its use of white Team Plasma to point this all out to us, but look at the length of any of the bad guys' speeches in the last two generations. Cyrus in Platinum is prone to this as well.
I guess the next game will point out Team Flair like that even more than that. But still, will they be crueller? Who knows? And as for the antagonists giving speeches to the grunts- is there some link between this and how dictators past and present give long speeches to rally the whole society aside from being coincidental?
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*Max Revive*
Well, Team Plasma are the scariest of the teams we've had so far, because they were trying to take away the one thing that the Pokemon world couldn't do without. If Pokemon went, it'd take time for the world to adapt to not using them for transport of cargo or people (Lapras and Machamp, for example). It's not exactly "dark", but it's quite powerful. Ghetsis raised N for one purpose, so that's pretty bad.
Maybe the teams have tried to make a powerful effect on society as they've gone through the generations.
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Well, Team Plasma are the scariest of the teams we've had so far, because they were trying to take away the one thing that the Pokemon world couldn't do without. If Pokemon went, it'd take time for the world to adapt to not using them for transport of cargo or people (Lapras and Machamp, for example). It's not exactly "dark", but it's quite powerful. Ghetsis raised N for one purpose, so that's pretty bad.
Right, point taken. Indeed, Team Plasma is the most scariest of the teams.
Anyway, despite Plasma's evil motives and dark themes scattering Generation V, Team Galactic of Generation IV gets some brownie points for being scary in the way that they wish to destroy the entire Pokémon universe and replace it with their own.