PKMN.NET Forums
General Category => PKMN.NET => Topic started by: sylar on December 05, 2011, 13:53
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hi
i know art threads are really dead most of the time
at least mine seem to be but i dunno???
but what's da scoop on double postin in art threads?
see i was gonna do this thing, it's called dedramo which is a new drawing for every day in december. i'm a bit late since i only figured this out like... today... but yeah...
if i were to post, would i need to wait until someone else posted on a dedramo threads, or could i be a chancer and say 'what if there wasn't a double posting rule on the art threads'?
i guess it's just me but i really like showing off things i've drawn and it's hard to do that when nobody really sees them to comment u_u
this is all just one big WWEH post it seems but
yeah
tl;dr: can you double post on an art thread to bump it, or even just update it with new art? or do you need to wait until someone has posted before you can post yourself?
better question is 'does anyone but me care'
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Personally I feel double posting on art threads should be allowed.
Art is something that is done upon pure inspiration and expression of self (unlike with RPing or other threads where you have to wait for a response before you can continue a story/debate/etc.) and waiting for someone to comment on it is generally irritating if you have more that you wish to post up.
By the Owner of the thread double posting (especially in the first few posts) they give themselves more room for links or thumbnails or even full pictures, as a way of, essentially, promoting their work and going 'Hey, look what I did, what do you think?' which is the very feel the Art Board should be going for.
Just my thoughts.
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Edit it into the previous post, and if you don't have enough characters create another post.
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Edit it into the previous post, and if you don't have enough characters create another post.
Still doesn't help with the issue Sylar is raising.
With multiple other forums (if you want to call this a comparison and complain about it then so be it), you can bump your own topic multiple times.
However I believe that the art forum here could use something slightly different, in the sense that perhaps only bump if you have a new piece of art, and the thread hasn't been responded to within x amount of time (no posts for say, 2/3 weeks)
As for Sylar's specific case, it could be classed as an art Project rather than a shop or gallery, and so could differ again.
If I'm honest the art board could to with a bit of a revamp in a sense, and this could well be a step forward, allowing more people to have projects such as this, while being able to keep better track.
Although on the flipside, posting a link with the date beside it could work just as well, and has been used in the past by people. But that still doesn't get past the point of double posting so that others can actually see your work and realise you've posted a new piece. As far as I know, edits only show up as new to those who have posted in the thread.
((My mind keeps going off on a tangent today -__- I don't like it.))
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Removing or changing the double posting rule for art threads sort of defeats the purpose of there being a double posting rule for the rest of the forum. Sure, you want to show off your art and that's great but the same principal applies if I wanted to show off a particular post for example (lame example, but meh) - I couldn't just go around double posting. If people want to post, they will post. If they don't, they won't.
You could always notify your friends to put in a post?
In any case, I don't really mind. It would make sense, but it doesn't really affect me unless I start posting my drawings. Heh. :p
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dropping hints to people to post in your thread seems a bit vain to me. wweh i'm a bit Self Concious and don't want to tell people to look at the art i'm hardly pleased with in the first place. in saying that, it's also kind of disheartening to have nobody post unless you need to ask them to.
i do not understand how it defeats the purpose though.
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Removing or changing the double posting rule for art threads sort of defeats the purpose of there being a double posting rule for the rest of the forum.
It would not. Every single other forum I can think of is against double posting outside of art forums, and here is the reason; because you are updating your thread, you are *not* making a spam post. Most of double posting is because of useless spam and people having absolutely no reason to double post otherwise, but an update and posting a new piece of art is the exact opposite.
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Just edit it in.
Your reasoning for double posting applies to other topics as well - why wouldn't you be allowed to double post to draw attention to your role play? Your debate? Your trade request?
In other words, if we did it in art, we'd have to do it everywhere else.
And then there's that point - if nobody else posts, then people aren't interested in the topic. If they are, a 'thank you' or 'well done' are simple to add (especially if you put in a single request for it).
And if people aren't interested in the topic, we don't really see the point of keeping it up on top - I'd rather have topics people care about, want to read and reply to at the top of the forum, instead of of the topics of the three people who keep bumping their topics whenever someone else replies.
tl;dr: If it's there for art, it should be there for the others. And in that case, if people don't reply, then why allow bumping to force it up? Just edit it.
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The problem being that some people ARE interested, but don't want to say 'Oh that's nice' to every piece of art that's posted.
And if people aren't interested in the topic, we don't really see the point of keeping it up on top - I'd rather have topics people care about, want to read and reply to at the top of the forum
I actually found this somewhat rude. At the end of the day art is expressive unlike roleplays or debates (or at least in a different way), and so is very very different from other boards. People post art here which could be viewed as personal, and to say no-one cares just because they haven't posted is rude. Some people just don't know how to respond to some pieces of art.
Saying 'look at my art' by double-posting IN THE THREAD, is better than going around to other boards and posting 'look at my art, oops this is a debate thread'. The latter is spamming. Double posting in your own thread is not. It's, in a sense, promoting yourself to the community.
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I'm sorry, I don't see double posting to say 'Look at my art' any different from 'Read my debate', 'Read my thoughtful point on Pokemon', 'Look at my briliant team' or similar like that.
People post their posts here to be read, just as art is posted to be seen. I don't see it being different just because it's art.
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If you edit a post, the post appears "new" to those who have already read it.
IE: I post a picture in my art thread.
Joeno looks at the thread.
Later, I edit another picture in.
From Joeno's point of view, the post is flagged up as having new content, despite not having another post made in it.
^Doesn't that give the effect that you're after? Flagging up new content to users?
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The fact that they're raising is, John could update the topic by editing the topic all he wants, but eventually it'll fall into Page 2. Thus no one will notice or bother to look for it since it isn't on the front of the board.
My suggestion: Make a noticeable advertisement in your signature linking to the topic with a message like, "Updating daily this month."
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i think if a double posting rule was to be made more flexible on the art boards, it should be only if your topic falls off of the first few pages. because i didn't realize it too much until now, but i never check the second page of the art board because i think i check the first page frequently enough. of course, some artist i love could be updating for ages and i'd never know because its on page 2 e.e
and if someone was posting a lot of images-- lets say a photographer -- wouldn't we run into a filesize issue? you can cram a lot of art posts into one post, yeah, but that could be a problem, if the page takes ages to load. like i've kind of wanted to upload some pictures i've taken in the past but i feel like i'm making people with slow computers lives difficult when i put more than 6 up. i mean there are definitely workarounds to this, but i think its worth mentioning.
but i can't say im for constantly posting over and over. thats just kind of obnoxious and i can see the front page of the art board being completely spammed, which would be really counterproductive.
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Your reasoning for double posting applies to other topics as well - why wouldn't you be allowed to double post to draw attention to your role play? Your debate? Your trade request?
Why shouldn't they apply to those as well? The double posting rule was clearly in place to prevent spam posts; these are clearly not spam posts. You are posting updates that are completely relevant to the thread at hand and add a considerable amount to the thread (and a piece of art/a long debate post in regards to a new sort of news/article relevant to the debate/you have a brand new trade request).
I'm not sure why people insist on enforcing the actual rule as opposed to relating it to the reason why the rule was put in place. It's like saying you understand physics because you know the equation, not because of how it's derived or the concepts behind it if we want to bring up outside comparisons.
The easiest way to make all of this not matter is remove post count, put very little emphasis on post count, or remove post count from arts/Role Play/etc that you are allowed to double post in. Or, better yet, re-implement the system where your double post merged with the previous post.
tl;dr: If it's there for art, it should be there for the others. And in that case, if people don't reply, then why allow bumping to force it up? Just edit it.
Because not everybody posts every single time they're interested in something? I read plenty of posts that I am interested in but alas, I always save a response for later. When it's bumped to page 2 I obviously forget.
^Doesn't that give the effect that you're after? Flagging up new content to users?
Not everyone scrolls down. Sometimes seeing it on the "new posts" portion will actually bring users to the thread.
and if someone was posting a lot of images-- lets say a photographer -- wouldn't we run into a filesize issue?
So you... post the link, write a couple sentences on it, and go from there.
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The fact that they're raising is, John could update the topic by editing the topic all he wants, but eventually it'll fall into Page 2. Thus no one will notice or bother to look for it since it isn't on the front of the board.
i think if a double posting rule was to be made more flexible on the art boards, it should be only if your topic falls off of the first few pages.
Because not everybody posts every single time they're interested in something? I read plenty of posts that I am interested in but alas, I always save a response for later. When it's bumped to page 2 I obviously forget.
Not everyone scrolls down. Sometimes seeing it on the "new posts" portion will actually bring users to the thread.
All of these arguments are invalidated by the option to "Show new replies to your posts" option beside your avatar at the top of the screen. If you're following a particular topic, and have posted in it, then when someone edits new content in, that topic will be back on the list of topics for you to check for your interest.
So rather than relying on your favourite artist to double post, check the new replies page and they'll be there.
I'm not sure why people insist on enforcing the actual rule as opposed to relating it to the reason why the rule was put in place. It's like saying you understand physics because you know the equation, not because of how it's derived or the concepts behind it if we want to bring up outside comparisons.
The easiest way to make all of this not matter is remove post count, put very little emphasis on post count, or remove post count from arts/Role Play/etc that you are allowed to double post in. Or, better yet, re-implement the system where your double post merged with the previous post.
^I'm very much in favour of this idea; but I have the feeling of "If it's not broken, don't fix it." Really, this topic is only here because people want to ensure their work is seen by their fans. And seeing as we have the "check new replies" option, or even the "check unread posts" option, if you're a silent-fan, then I don't think the double post rule needs to be ammended.
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My suggestion: Make a noticeable advertisement in your signature linking to the topic with a message like, "Updating daily this month."
This sounds like a perfect solution. Or even "Updating daily this month. Last update: 6 December 2011"
If that's an issue with signature size, I'd rather increase that size to prevent having to distinguish between spam posts and drawing attention to posts - to me, "Look, I've slightly updated my debate" (by adding three words) is already clearly spam.
The rule isn't in place just for preventing spam of the obvious kind - I consider artificially keeping a post at the top through double posting spam as well, and that includes using it for any 'bumping'. That's the reason the rule was put in (keeping the flow of topics natural), not because of some more limited concept of spam.
Removing post count would, unfortunately, piss off a far larger amount of people than the number of artists facing this issue, and I really, REALLY don't want to deal with the fallout of that. Like it or not, people care about post count.
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^I'm very much in favour of this idea; but I have the feeling of "If it's not broken, don't fix it." Really, this topic is only here because people want to ensure their work is seen by their fans. And seeing as we have the "check new replies" option, or even the "check unread posts" option, if you're a silent-fan, then I don't think the double post rule needs to be ammended.
Not everyone knows what they are let alone what they do. What stops these art threads from being purged as well? If we can't double post and we're about to have a Purge without our knowing then all of the work goes down the drain and it's a pain in the ass to repost everything.
And not everyone's even posting "look at me i'm drawing attention to myself." It's more like "here's a new recent uprising in gay marriage and here are my thoughts, etc etc etc... I made a new piece of art and here's something i tried different with this etc etc etc." It's those kinds of posts people are in favor of, not what you are suggesting.
If that's an issue with signature size, I'd rather increase that size to prevent having to distinguish between spam posts and drawing attention to posts - to me, "Look, I've slightly updated my debate" (by adding three words) is already clearly spam.
Common sense is the ultimate distinguisher. It's not hard; you've even preached common sense yourself in regards to following the rules so I don't see why it's all of a sudden a new sort of concept here.
The rule isn't in place just for preventing spam of the obvious kind - I consider artificially keeping a post at the top through double posting spam as well, and that includes using it for any 'bumping'. That's the reason the rule was put in (keeping the flow of topics natural), not because of some more limited concept of spam.
There is no such thing as a "natural" flow of topics, and your definition of spam seems to be extremely broad to have included something like that as spam.
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Thats just great, I've double posted on several topics. Thanks Pkmn net! Thats real nice of you....really
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All of these arguments are invalidated by the option to "Show new replies to your posts" option beside your avatar at the top of the screen. If you're following a particular topic, and have posted in it, then when someone edits new content in, that topic will be back on the list of topics for you to check for your interest.
i hate to say it but if those features went away i wouldnt even notice. i browse boards and if i see something new and interesting, i check it. sometimes i post my two cents in a topic and never visit it again. when i go on my updated topic page, i pretty much look at it, get overwhelmed by threads in forum games and topics i dont care about, and then stop looking at it. im sure im not the only member who doesnt use that feature either, so an artist could be posting until the cows come home but i wouldnt even notice if it wasn't front-page.
and with the signature thing, i honestly dont pay too much attention to signatures either. i look at the images in them and keep scrolling, i dont bother reading or clicking too many links.
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I agree that you can just use the Unread Replies function to check for art updates, generally - if you don't use it all that often, perhaps this just gives you a reason to?
However, what about when your topic has fallen to page 3 or something because you haven't posted for a while, and then you want to add something new? It's surely less spammy and more efficient to bump the old topic rather than create a brand new one, but editing won't gain you any sort of fresh audience to your art. And surely asking someone to post some meaningless four-word post just so you can avoid double posting is more spammy than just double posting in the first place?
Thats just great, I've double posted on several topics. Thanks Pkmn net! Thats real nice of you....really
It's not a new thing we've just sprung on you, silly, it's been in the rules (http://pkmn.net/rules) for like forever! Says in section five, no posting multiple times in a row. Mebbe you just need to give them another glance over hmn? ^^
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Right, I've had a discussion about this, and this is our compromise of sorts.
First, doubleposting is not allowed by default, as per the current rules. Below are the guidelines under which a moderator can make an exception. This decision is entirely theirs - if they feel any post is unnecessary or spammy, or does not follow any of the below guidelines, they can treat it as the rules being broken. That won't be open for discussion - being allowed to doublepost like this will be a privilege that we can deny, not a right.
Doubleposting (posting twice in a row) would be allowed under the following circumstances:
* The posts follow all other rules. This should be obvious.
* The post should contain sufficient new content. It should not simply be 'look what I added in the previous post' or anything similar. This would obviously include new art, but also things like an alternative Pokemon for your team waiting to be rated or a new argument (or two) in a debate.
* The post should not be done too soon after the previous post - if you add it five minutes after the previous, you might as well edit it in.
* The post should not be done too long after the previous post - this really shouldn't be used to revive a three month old topic, just create a new one then. I know it's said to be spammy, for readers and moderators it's actually more convenient, as the info will be current.
* Doubleposting should not be done too often - doing it once or twice is fine, but ten posts from yourself is too much. I'd say that the maximum is three posts in a row, but that can change depending on the circumstances. This also applies to the number of topics - if you do it in one or two of them, that's okay, but don't do it to create a full page of topics in a forum that's all double posts.
* If there is another as effective method, use that over doubleposting (eg tags in topic titles "Last updated on this date" - especially when it comes to stickies and such)
* This applies to all forums. I'm sorry arts people, but you're no more special than anyone else in this.
The guidelines are deliberately vague to allow the moderators to make a decision based on the circumstances.
As always, the exception that doubleposting is allowed if the content of the post is too big for a single post remains.
And again, let me emphasize this - the moderator is the person who decides it's allowed. We're not going to accept discussion on this, as by default doubleposting of any kind remains forbidden.
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i think the new doubleposting terms are definitely satisfactory, thanks guys.
I agree that you can just use the Unread Replies function to check for art updates, generally - if you don't use it all that often, perhaps this just gives you a reason to?
but if its not my art thread, then its not really benefiting me to sift through a bunch of useless replies to posts to check on one obscure artist i kind of like. why would i want to click through 3 pages of mostly junk topics, when its the exact same likely waste of time to pick through 3 pages of mostly already read art topics? not to sound disrespectful to the artists here, but i can't see myself going back several pages, checking all art threads daily for updates. call me lazy, b
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Reading over these new guidelines, I'm actually rather happy with them. I'm happy with the result, and happy with how we came to it =] Thank you Jeroen, and Sylar, I hope you're reasonably happy with the result too.
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^yeah, the additional rules on this seem awesome. Moderators using their common sense and discretion is a decent way to go imo =D
i hate to say it but if those features went away i wouldnt even notice...
and with the signature thing, i honestly dont pay too much attention to signatures either. i look at the images in them and keep scrolling, i dont bother reading or clicking too many links.
But...that's just daft. Really.
You guys are asking to have an issue addressed.
We've pointed out we have functions in place to help with this.
You're saying "oh but yeah I don't use them."
Well...isn't that your problem then? ^^;
Either way, these new rules will hopefully satisfy those issues raised. ^^