Topic: Greninja Suspect test

[Hahex and Oshawott]

These are dark days for the frog. Following his nerf on his U-smash in Smash 4, the mascot of the sixth generation is now being considered for the ubers tier over at Smogon University. I imagine they're due to its blistering fast speed and the new acquisition of a plethora of new moves, courtesy of the ORAS move tutors.

Gunk Shot, for example, with a bit of attack investment lets Greninja OHKO Azumarill, for example. Low Kick now beats Assault Vest Tyranitar and dents Ferrothorn, as well as other steel types. This combined with the previous coverage, from moves such as Ice beam, Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Grass Knot, and Hidden Power Fire lets Greninja beat almost every Pokemon in the tier, provided it takes the correct four moves. 

Sure Chansey still eats up hits pretty well regardless, but its pink friend Clefable now has to think twice about that gunk shot. Similarly, Scarf Landorus-T seems to be popular as the usual check (?) to Greninja shenanigans. But it seems, so the argument goes, that Pokemon that can stand against the ninja frog are few and far between.

Although if it does get banned, then I suppose Empoleon falls back into the realms of irrelevance again

[Richard and Blaziken]

Empoleon is beaten by Low Kick variants anyway, heh.

Saw this coming, Protean is too good on a Pokemon with stats and coverage like Greninja. They just kept giving him things until he could beat whatever he needed to beat.

Not sure if he will get banned, but I think there are grounds for it, with how few actual viable counters he has.

[Meowstic Royalty]

Eh, in my opinion, I doubt it'll go to Ubers. It's one of those Pokemon where it's a strong force in OU, but in Ubers it would stand no chance, mainly due to the horrible defense stats.

Any move that isn't not very effective can either kill it or dent it horribly. It's a glass cannon, and in Ubers I rarely see one do much damage.

Maybe a separate tier should be made, the Pokemon too good for OU but too weak for Ubers.

[SirBlaziken]

^If that's so then we'd lose most to all of our megas, still an awesome idea.

It seems as if all my favorite competitives are getting sent to uberland 1 by one. If that's true, Latios is up soon. I agree that there's grounds for it, but its defenses are shoddy.

[Richard and Blaziken]

Eh, in my opinion, I doubt it'll go to Ubers. It's one of those Pokemon where it's a strong force in OU, but in Ubers it would stand no chance, mainly due to the horrible defense stats.

Any move that isn't not very effective can either kill it or dent it horribly. It's a glass cannon, and in Ubers I rarely see one do much damage.

Maybe a separate tier should be made, the Pokemon too good for OU but too weak for Ubers.

A Pokemon's usefulness in Uber is not taken into consideration in the banning process, nor is it a counter-argument for banning. If a Pokemon is too good for OU, it is banned without regard for how it will do in Ubers, just to make that clear.

[the bread dragon]

A Pokemon's usefulness in Uber is not taken into consideration in the banning process, nor is it a counter-argument for banning. If a Pokemon is too good for OU, it is banned without regard for how it will do in Ubers, just to make that clear.

wouldn't that change with the coming about of anything goes, and treatment of übers more of a legitimate tier now? i do like the idea of a BL of sorts, but thatd mess up the numbering system theyve got going now


if anyone has never had the privilege to use greninja, DO IT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE, because it is godly. it definitely has its fair share of checks and such, however. either way id rather it not get b& but it seems like everybody and their mama hates him, so itll probably go v.v

[Richard and Blaziken]

wouldn't that change with the coming about of anything goes, and treatment of übers more of a legitimate tier now? i do like the idea of a BL of sorts, but thatd mess up the numbering system theyve got going now


if anyone has never had the privilege to use greninja, DO IT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE, because it is godly. it definitely has its fair share of checks and such, however. either way id rather it not get b& but it seems like everybody and their mama hates him, so itll probably go v.v

No, it wouldn't. Things aren't kept in NU because they're not good in RU. Same concept here. Uber remains a banlist, it's just treated as a tier as well, but OU remains the focus of our metagame.

[Raphetty]

I'm just going to stick with Battle Spot on the 3DS so these bans don't really bother me. I pretty much only use Showdown for building EV spreads. But it does look like the frog will be banned, from reading the thread on Smogon.

[JSM]

I think this shows how out of touch with the metagame I am. I haven't played in a few months and this was a complete shock when Martí told me this was even a thing. I thought this would be waaaay down the list. Things like mega-cham and talonflame(Unsure on my position on this ban though..) should be tested first.

[Lord Raven]

wouldn't that change with the coming about of anything goes, and treatment of übers more of a legitimate tier now? i do like the idea of a BL of sorts, but thatd mess up the numbering system theyve got going now


if anyone has never had the privilege to use greninja, DO IT BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE, because it is godly. it definitely has its fair share of checks and such, however. either way id rather it not get b& but it seems like everybody and their mama hates him, so itll probably go v.v

the tiers above are always a banlist for the tiers below.  It's been arranged this way for a long time.

[Richard and Blaziken]

I think this shows how out of touch with the metagame I am. I haven't played in a few months and this was a complete shock when Martí told me this was even a thing. I thought this would be waaaay down the list. Things like mega-cham and talonflame(Unsure on my position on this ban though..) should be tested first.

Reading the Smogon thread really explains it, and it's OR/AS's fault for giving Greninja the exact tools it needed to beat any of its counters...

That said, I agree. Mega Pinsir, Mega Medicham, Talonflame, and Mega Slowbro really do need suspect tests. I'm honestly baffled that Mega Pinsir is still OU, it blows my mind that people think it's okay for OU.

[SirBlaziken]

Doesn't Greninja suffer from a case of 4 move slot syndrome?

[Richard and Blaziken]

So does Arceus.

The fact that you don't know what it'll be using is a big problem, since it doesn't even have to run "STAB attacks". It can do whatever it wants, and if it just happens to be running the 4 moves you can't deal with, gg.

Further, now that he has these 2 new tutors, a fully physical set is completely viable, as is fully special, and mixed. There are no counters to every set, and this was the problem for Aegislash and Mega Mawile too: nothing could switch into them, and it makes team building hellish because you can't prepare enough for them.

[SirBlaziken]

Ok, I see what you're saying here. Yeah, in that respect, the ban is a good idea.

[Delicious_Scout]

This reminds me I swept Richard base's limitless team with Mega Diancie at lvl 95. Much YOLO very SWAG wow

With Diamond Storm, Hidden Power Fire/Stealth Rock (I recommend HP Fire for maximum trolling), Earth Power, and Moonblast, what is stopping Mega Diancie from being top notch? "Lel, Aqua Jet", "Let, Bullet Punch". This forces Mega Diancie to be paired with Rotom-RheaWash, and the latter can be easily exploited if one carries ConkelderpHURRDURRdurr, a Pink Blob, or basically any Assault Vest user or anything with good special defence who is not super affected by both STAB and can live with a burn (Lum Berries are a good idea, too, right, Mold Breaker Haxorus and Mega Gyarados?).

Is Greninja the same case? No.

Per se, Greninja resists Ice Shard, Shadow Sneak, and Aqua Jet, and is weak against Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch. Conkeldurr comes to mind in order to quickly eliminate Greninja, but mindgames appear, then: if Conkeldurr uses Mach Punch, it will be only able to 2HKO Greninja (as seen below):

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 212-252 (74.1 - 88.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

And guess what, Greninja can use Extrasensory for not only becoming resistant against Mach Punch, but also able to 2HKO Conkeldurr.

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 198-237 (56.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 273-322 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (Psychic) Greninja: 53-63 (18.5 - 22.1%) -- possible 5HKO

Conkeldurr needs Stealth Rock to guarantee its success against Greninja. If Greninja uses Extrasensory against Conkeldurr at full health and the latter does not flinch, though, Conkeldurr will enjoy Knocking Greninja's problems Off, but this scenario is highly unlikely.

What more Pokémon can battle such a thight battle against Greninja? None barring Keldeo if the pony brings a Choice Scarf. And this is just the special set. The mixed and physical sets offer new walls, checks, and counters, but nothing can hard-counter Greninja. It would force users to use Pursuit Pokémon, as well as Paralysers, and Choice Scarfers.

Even after this, Greninja is strictly weak; almost anything that is not OHKOed by Greninja has a chance at killing it, especially due to Life Orb recoil. Force Greninja to be played early and Greninja will be dead. Force Greninja to eat Spikes, Status, and Stealth Rock, and Greninja will faint. For this reason, a defensive core with Impish Krookodile, Jirachi/Clefable, and Mega Venusaur, as well as Gyarados if one feels like, is the easiest way to defeat it, and this core is, frankly, very slow to play with and as.

At least Greninja does not have relevant priority; right, Mega Pinsir and Talonflame?

tl;dr Greninja has good reasons to be banned, but do not count on me for it.

Edit: Does this count as my daily article?