Topic: PKMN.net's Tier Lists

[Enigma]

Where did you get that from Rex? About sleep being banned? *panic*

and I know that Smogon are TEH EXPERTS and all that stuff - I just feel that some of their decisions are a bit...weird. Politoed for NU. Why? Because of Drizzle? Are rain teams REALLY that good when they can be nullified by the introduction of another weather effect?

[Ledyba]

casual look at smogon: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83853  the whole argument seems to revolve now that sleep has changed in B/W (counter is reset for the x amount of times for sleep when you switch out) it's effeceitly as good as OHKOing a pokemon.  Not sure what side I take but it's a very intresting read.

nullified by the introduction of another weather effect? 

i dunno how variable that is considering most permaweather enachers are water-weak.

you remember my Kabutops in VGC? try facing a team like that, well you know different water types, with sift swim 2x stab.. ouch.

I can see the point in that.

[Afro-Disiak]

2c

Rain has much more going for it than Sand, even though Hippo and Ttar are arguably better pokemon than Politoed. As Rex said, all water pokemon get basically another STAB on top of an already great offensive type, plus the plethora of Swift Swimmers that basically make speed tiers null. You ban Manaphy and Kingdra, then Ludi / Gorebyss / Omastar take their place.. get banned until only Politoed is left.

Sand on the other hand has Doryuuzu, Sandslash (unreleased, but boy I can't wait ) and Randorosu who really make use of the weather offensively. Sand Power and Sand Throw were Game Freak trying to balance weather abilities.. they just didn't spread them around enough. Something like Cacturne would love Sand Throw.

And to me the Dream World "tier" isn't something I play since there are still a lot of things to be ironed out over which moves can be obtained, genders of certain pokemon, legendaries with specific natures etc. I just stick with Wifi where only released pokemon/moves/abilities are used.

On the subject of sleep.. well I can't say I've noticed it being a hugeeeeeee thing. The main culprit here is obviously Darkrai, with not only Dark Void, but it's ability Bad Dream, 135 SAtk, 125 speed AND nasty plot. I've always taken Sleep and status in general into account when building teams, and it can be alleviated using Sleep Talk, Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/abilities etc. I mean sometimes when you're battling you have to sacrifice something to get something else in for free - well at least when something's asleep it can still take a hit in a pinch, it's  not a COMPLETE dead weight.

[Ledyba]

Cacturne with Sand THrow.. wow that'd be cool, what'd it get instead...*looks up*

Water Absorb

ffffffff. :<

[Specstile]

Sleep Should Not Be Banned!
There are restrictions on sleep anyway, only one pokemon at a time as said before, sacrificing one pokemon is not all bad. You have pokemon that can heal them later (making use of their moves more)
Sleep only lasts for 1!-2 turns when applied so i don't see the fuss. Roar could be used for tactical play too.
But chlorophyll venusaur (with sleep powder) with drought ninetails sounds scary.

[Lord Raven]

Well the problem with the new sleep mechanics is sleep -> setup -> get Pokemon to switch out -> sleeper comes back, counter is reset, another kill.  What happens if they're the last Pokemon?  Auto-win.  What happens if they decide to switch them in again later?  Setup -> kill, leaving the rest of the party in shambles.  Getting a setup in while they switch out the sleeping Pokemon is good enough and wasn't too bad a game breaker, but hey, having another shot to do the same thing a couple more times is terrible.  But this is still just theorymon and I don't think I'll ever try this int he actual metagame considering I'm off Pokemon for whatever reason.

[Zy]

Doryuuzu; Base 88 Speed, with the Sandstorm equivalent of Swift Swim. Base 135 Attack with Swords Dance and STAB Earthquake. Immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic. Assuming 252 Spe Jolly Doryuuzu, that's 604 Speed. 252 Atk Jolly after a Swords Dance is 738. Also carries Rapid Spin. Balloon removes its most common weakness.
Nothing walls Doryuuzu - Forretress is 2-3HKOed by Earthquake, Nattorei is 3HKOed, Desukaan is 2HKOed, even Groudon is 3HKOed. And all of these Pokemon bar Groudon and maybe WillOWisp Desukaan can't really threaten it, so it can set up more SDs on them.

[Afro-Disiak]

Doryuuzu; Base 88 Speed, with the Sandstorm equivalent of Swift Swim. Base 135 Attack with Swords Dance and STAB Earthquake. Immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic. Assuming 252 Spe Jolly Doryuuzu, that's 604 Speed. 252 Atk Jolly after a Swords Dance is 738. Also carries Rapid Spin. Balloon removes its most common weakness.
Nothing walls Doryuuzu - Forretress is 2-3HKOed by Earthquake, Nattorei is 3HKOed, Desukaan is 2HKOed, even Groudon is 3HKOed. And all of these Pokemon bar Groudon and maybe WillOWisp Desukaan can't really threaten it, so it can set up more SDs on them.

Bronzong beats X-Scissorless Dory, while Gliscor walls those without Return. Balloon and Magnet Rise Magnezone beats both. Balloon [steel type] checks both (once at least). Birijion and Breloom are decent checks, and practically all priority forces it out. Besides that, I'm not sure what your post was trying to say other than stuff that's already common knowledge?

I think Sandslash will be just as fun with ability to withstand priority, and the same movepool.

[Hahex and Oshawott]

Well the problem with the new sleep mechanics is sleep -> setup -> get Pokemon to switch out -> sleeper comes back, counter is reset, another kill.  What happens if they're the last Pokemon?  Auto-win.  What happens if they decide to switch them in again later?  Setup -> kill, leaving the rest of the party in shambles.  Getting a setup in while they switch out the sleeping Pokemon is good enough and wasn't too bad a game breaker, but hey, having another shot to do the same thing a couple more times is terrible.  But this is still just theorymon and I don't think I'll ever try this int he actual metagame considering I'm off Pokemon for whatever reason.

sorry, but what's this counter thing you talk about?

[Enigma]

(Don't take the actual figures I use as word, but it goes something like this.)

When you're put to sleep a "counter" is immediately activated, choosing a random number between 1 and 5. So let's say it's 3, in 3 turns, your Pokemon would wake up.

Now, if you switched the Pokemon out in Gen IV, the counter would remember itself - so if you'd been asleep two turns, switched out, and brought it out later, your sleeping Pokemon would wake up the next turn.

However, the counter resets itself in Gen V.

(At least, this is what I've taken this discussion to mean. ^^ )

[Specstile]

I think this counter has changed to 1-2 in gen V
Not sure, might have read it wrong

[Lord Raven]

enigma's explaining the concept of the counter using a hypothetical example.  Yes, he's got the concept right, no it probably isn't a 3 turn counter at all.  That's the point.

[Zy]

On top of that, the numbers are now from 1-3 as opposed to from 2-4.

and @Dan_Dan, I was replying to Tim's comment regarding why Doryuuzu is fearful.

[Afro-Disiak]

First round of suspect voting for pokemon is in, see what you think:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3215668&postcount=53

Darkrai: 49 Bans, 1 Do Not Ban, and 1 Abstain (98%)
Deoxys-A: 46 Bans, 2 Do Not Bans, and 3 Abstains (95.8%)
Deoxys-N: 28 Bans, 11 Do Not Bans, and 12 Abstains (71.8%)
Doryuuzu: 16 Bans, 27 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (37.2%)
Latios: 7 Bans, 38 Do Not Bans, and 6 Abstains (15.5%)
Manaphy: 26 Bans, 17 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (60.5%)
Shaymin-S: 51 Bans, 0 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (100%!!!)

The Pokemon who hit a super majority and will be gone from the metagame starting next round are: Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-N, and Shaymin-S. Manaphy hit a simple majority and will therefore automatically be a suspect next round, where one more simple majority will seal its fate. Doryuuzu and Latios did not even hit a simple majority, and therefore need to be re-nominated next round if people still feel like they're broken.

For the abilities:

Drizzle: 24 Bans, 17 Do Not Bans, and 9 Abstains (58.5%)
Inconsistent: 48 Bans, 2 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (96%)
Shadow Tag: 17 Bans, 22 Do Not Bans, and 11 Abstains (43.6%)

Starting next suspect test, Inconsistent will be banned from standard play, Drizzle will be put on notice to be voted on again at the end of Round 2, and Shadow Tag remains free to use however people please.

[Liam]

Lol banning abilities.