Author Topic: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life  (Read 13620 times)

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Offline Lord Raven

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2014, 01:55 »
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The games which have included same-sex marriage that I have given before as examples, and have essentially created a precedent for the inclusion of same-sex marriage in video games, that is Skyrim, Mass Effect 3 and The Sims, have all come from American companies.
Let me put it this way; when I was a kid, my parents would probably not allow me to buy those games same-sex marriage or not.  As an adult, I am able to buy those games.  Those games also don't have the same level of mass appeal that Mii Tomagatchi or whatever is supposed to have.

Mii tomagatchi's are meant to have mass appeal and kids are far more likely to use them than adults like me.  If the same-sex marriage part is allowed in these games, then Nintendo will lose quite a bit of money from the west due to many parents not wanting to influence their kids to this.

Companies have very little moral obligation to matters like this, and will go the route which will haul in the green.  If it has a huge chance of losing them money, then they have no reason to do it.  There's a substantial chance of them losing money given the number of states same-sex marriage is not legalized in, as well as the fact that half of this country is republican who will tend to vote against same-sex marriage.
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Offline Turner

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2014, 03:19 »
You haven't said anything relevant in terms of semantics so I'll just raise this:

Here, the way you put "Mii Tamagotchi" doesn't quite adress the problem. The difference is a question of identity. With a Tamagotchi, the Tamagotchi is an entirely different entity to the person playing with it. But a Mii, in every single respect, is an avatar of the person playing it. It is supposed to be the exact same person, adjusted aesthetically for game mechanics and cohesive game art style. The Mii is still a representation of a person. Even though the player has no control over it, the Mii should still retain some very fundamental characteristics of the player and one of them is whether or not the Mii is gay.

I think you should actually research the game before you make comments like this, because you're judging it completely out of context. Considering how little you knew about this game I don't really think it's your place to say how the Mii is represented. In Tomodachi Life, you're essentially creating a Mii especially for the game, it's not actually *your* own Mii. It doesn't represent the same characteristics as you if you don't want it to. What you are saying might be correct if Tomodachi Life actually used Miis directly, but they do not.

Then the second question is whether or not the company is morally obliged to add the feature in. I argue that there's no intrinsic right or wrong answer to that question.

No. You are point blank 100% incorrect. They have absolutely no moral obligations to fulfill whatsoever. End of argument on that point. Regardless of how much you may or may not let videogames influence your life they have no obligation or responsibility to serve as your or society's moral compass. You cannot refute this.

The main reason Marriage is how it is in Tomodachi Life is because it is a direct parody of Japanese Drama (J-Drama) TV shows. The wooden response ("My pleasure.") of the female after proposing, the traditional White Wedding, the text effects and cliche effects...I could go on. This is what marriage represents and stands for in Tomodachi Life - a parody, a complete joke poking fun at fiction, it is not supposed to be a representation of your virtual self actually falling in love and getting married.

There are no grounds to be offended because nobody is being represented in the first place.

Think about it, why do you think Nintendo said what they said in the first place? If you actually knew the game, the response makes a lot more sense, there's no moral or political implications toward same-sex couples - only that people have completely misunderstood how marriage as a whole is depicted in the game.

Offline Joeno

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2014, 12:57 »
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Effectively there could be a lot of incestuous Mii children made with these games.

I think equating incest with homosexuality is a big enough misunderstanding of the entire issue.

As a gay man, I feel slighted by the inability to have my Mii, my avatar and personification in the Wii system, actually be my avatar for relationships. Instead, this game tells me that my representation of myself in the Nintendo universe cannot be a gay man and pursue a relationship with another man. Instead, it says that even though in real life I'm gay, in their world I have to be straight, I have to like girls, and if there's any move in any other direction, that gets patched out.

Any words of 'Mii Tamagotchis' aside, Nintendo markets Miis as being you, as representing you. It's not an arbitrary separate character as you play in most RPGs, no, they encourage you to make a Mii that's recognisable, especially when face recognition comes in. That means that, whether you like it or not or whether it should be in this game or not, your Mii is not such an independent entity that it runs completely separate from you. It is still you.

As this is such a core part of who I am, Nintendo overruling me in what is a very personal thing offends me. It telling me that I (through my avatar) should only be in a straight relationship, offends me.

As for this not being a statement - not including same sex marriage is as much a statement about how much Nintendo values it as it would be if they did include it. By not including it, by not considering it, and by dismissing the concern initially, they make the statement that a same sex relationship is less, that it doesn't merit the same consideration and that it's not normal. That is, again, a message that troubles me. While I wouldn't call it homophobic - this seems to be more a case of forgetfulness - it certainly isn't the right thing to do.

There are no grounds to be offended because nobody is being represented in the first place.

No. No no no. If nobody was represented, there would be no marriage, no relationships, no nothing. Straight relationships ARE represented, it's only the same sex option that's removed. GROUPS are represented, and about 10% of the population is being ignored in faovur of the 90% that's the norm.

I don't care about "it doesnt fit in the game" or "this is not how it works". That, to me, shows how deeply ingrained the ignorance is. If they had thought about this earlier, instead of dismissing it, either through forgetfulness or "because it isn't normal", they could have build it in from the start. The fact that they didn't do that, that they from the start chose a direction that includes a part of the population, is what's troublesome in the first place.
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Offline Turner

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2014, 13:47 »
I think equating incest with homosexuality is a big enough misunderstanding of the entire issue.

Wow, this actually might be the worst attempt at an appeal to emotional bias in the whole thread. Are you serious? Nobody equated incest with homosexuality. The point is that the game has such a poor, vague idea of relationships that you can effectively have an incestuous marriage. How on earth can you say that is equating homosexuality with incest? If anything it's the complete opposite.

As a gay man, I feel slighted by the inability to have my Mii, my avatar and personification in the Wii system, actually be my avatar for relationships. Instead, this game tells me that my representation of myself in the Nintendo universe cannot be a gay man and pursue a relationship with another man. Instead, it says that even though in real life I'm gay, in their world I have to be straight, I have to like girls, and if there's any move in any other direction, that gets patched out.

Nothing was ever patched out. Do you even know how the same-sex bug worked? There was no 'same sex' marriage in the first place, it was just simply making imported Miis look like the opposite sex. That's all.

Any words of 'Mii Tamagotchis' aside, Nintendo markets Miis as being you, as representing you.
It's not an arbitrary separate character as you play in most RPGs, no, they encourage you to make a Mii that's recognisable, especially when face recognition comes in. That means that, whether you like it or not or whether it should be in this game or not, your Mii is not such an independent entity that it runs completely separate from you. It is still you.

You're completely missing the point. Even if Nintendo WERE to allow you to marry another male Mii, it would completely miss the point of the entire feature. What sense would it make if a male suddenly got pregnant? You're ignoring the fact that the whole marriage mechanic is supposed to be a joke that pokes fun at J-Drama. If they included same-sex relationships it would make the joke fall flat on its face and would also cause a graphical glitch that makes no sense

As this is such a core part of who I am, Nintendo overruling me in what is a very personal thing offends me. It telling me that I (through my avatar) should only be in a straight relationship, offends me.

Tomodachi Life overrules EVERYTHING about EVERYONE. It overrules your decisions on relationships point blank, it overrules your decision on whether or not you want children, it overrules how you speak and how you act. It overrules your personality. Tomodachi Life is all about putting your Mii in completely ridiculous unrealistic scenarios, that's the whole point of the game.


As for this not being a statement - not including same sex marriage is as much a statement about how much Nintendo values it as it would be if they did include it. By not including it, by not considering it, and by dismissing the concern initially, they make the statement that a same sex relationship is less, that it doesn't merit the same consideration and that it's not normal. That is, again, a message that troubles me. While I wouldn't call it homophobic - this seems to be more a case of forgetfulness - it certainly isn't the right thing to do.

No. No no no. If nobody was represented, there would be no marriage, no relationships, no nothing. Straight relationships ARE represented, it's only the same sex option that's removed. GROUPS are represented, and about 10% of the population is being ignored in faovur of the 90% that's the norm.

I don't care about "it doesnt fit in the game" or "this is not how it works". That, to me, shows how deeply ingrained the ignorance is. If they had thought about this earlier, instead of dismissing it, either through forgetfulness or "because it isn't normal", they could have build it in from the start. The fact that they didn't do that, that they from the start chose a direction that includes a part of the population, is what's troublesome in the first place.

Now you're just being hysterical. In Tomodachi Life, relationship == marriage == pregnancy == childbirth. There's absolutely no way of separating these, they are all one complete package that plays out like a cutscene. There's no representation of any morals or ethics in this, the whole thing is done in complete parody.

I'm sorry but if you 'Don't care how it works' then you're completely missing a fundamental reason as to why this is being debated in the first place. Try playing Tomodachi Collection and then get back to me, because you clearly have no idea as to what you're even talking about and instead are appealing to a moral argument that bears no relevance to the game itself. And once again: Same-sex relationships were not 'removed', please stop throwing this fallacy around.

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2014, 14:05 »
This topic has been going around in circles for a long time. Everyone just keeps reiterating the same points...

Homosexuality is not part of the game at this moment.
Adding homosexuality may make some people happy and some people unhappy.
Nintendo are not willing to take the risk of losing business because of one feature.
This does not need a moral debate.
Please just accept that this is Nintendo's stance on the issue at this time.
This may change in the future once there is more wide spread homosexual marriage but for now, this is just how it is.

I don't think anything else really needs to be said on the subject.

Offline Turner

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2014, 14:17 »
This topic has been going around in circles for a long time. Everyone just keeps reiterating the same points...

Homosexuality is not part of the game at this moment.
Adding homosexuality may make some people happy and some people unhappy.
Nintendo are not willing to take the risk of losing business because of one feature.
This does not need a moral debate.
Please just accept that this is Nintendo's stance on the issue at this time.
This may change in the future once there is more wide spread homosexual marriage but for now, this is just how it is.

I don't think anything else really needs to be said on the subject.

It's hardly even a matter of business, it's just a complete misunderstanding of what the game is actually like and how this feature plays out. People are getting offended over something they have no idea about and this has now escalated to cries of homophobia left right and centre.


Offline Joeno

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2014, 14:43 »
How on earth can you say that is equating homosexuality with incest?

To quote you again:

Quote
And this is also why being able to be in a relationship with a member of the same sex was a bug; because it allowed males to get pregnant (as pictured in this thread already). Effectively there could be a lot of incestuous Mii children made with these games.

Because males can get pregnant, there could be incestuous children. That is what you are saying here.

Quote
You're ignoring the fact that the whole marriage mechanic is supposed to be a joke that pokes fun at J-Drama.

"This genre can be ignorant, so don't call us out on it!

The developers made an intentional decision not to allow it. I don't care about some genre convention being just as ignorant, or it being 'for fun'. I still consider it ignorant and devaluing of my sexuality, of my relationships and of part of me as a person.

To bring out the racism card, to me this is about the same as saying a black and a white Mii can't have children together because JDrama only features Japanese characters. Same sort of wilfull ignorance of the real world.
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Offline the bread dragon

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2014, 14:54 »
lmao at the fact this argument is still going on.
its not a part of the game, so just let it be.
if it offends you, then dont buy the game
simples

Offline Turner

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2014, 15:09 »
Because males can get pregnant, there could be incestuous children. That is what you are saying here.

No, that is a complete jump to conclusions and you know it. You do realize that you could effectively marry your sister, mother, or father (if playing as a female) and get them pregnant on Tomodachi Life so long as you neglect to check the 'related to' option, right? I'm demonstrating how there has been very little thought put into the marriage mechanic of the game.

"This genre can be ignorant, so don't call us out on it!

The developers made an intentional decision not to allow it. I don't care about some genre convention being just as ignorant, or it being 'for fun'. I still consider it ignorant and devaluing of my sexuality, of my relationships and of part of me as a person.

This is absolute nonsense. You might as well say that Super Mario Bros is homophobic because it only portrays a heterosexual relationship, but we all know that isn't true because it's based upon atypical fairy tale lore. To stray from that would completely miss the point of the game. If you were to make the relationships same-sex, not only would massive parts of the game be re-written, the joke would completely fall on its face. Tomodachi Life is entirely made up of these sorts of jokes, it's like WarioWare meets Animal Crossing meets Tamagotchi. Not Mii Plaza meets The Sims.

I think you're putting far more weight on the marriage mechanic than is actually needed. It is a tiny, unimportant part of the game that is done completely in parody. The whole mechanic is basically summarized in about 4-5 different short cutscenes. You're forgetting that children are a target audience here, most of them are still in the 'girls are yucky!' stage of their lives, they wouldn't play it full stop if marriage was one of the dominating features. Tomodachi = Friend, the focus of the game is friends, not romantic relationships.

To bring out the racism card, to me this is about the same as saying a black and a white Mii can't have children together because JDrama only features Japanese characters. Same sort of wilfull ignorance of the real world.

But they don't only feature Japanese characters so that's completely irrelevant. Have you actually watched any J-Dramas?

Offline Delicious_Scout

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2014, 15:27 »

The title states Nintendo has not released gay marriage... but... what about Lesbian one! No one will able to emulate "Second Life"!
;~;
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Offline Shaymin

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2014, 15:30 »

The title states Nintendo has not released gay marriage... but... what about Lesbian one! No one will able to emulate "Second Life"!
;~;
please do not. gay marriage is two people of the same gender, no matter what sexuality they are so please, do not.




Offline Delicious_Scout

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2014, 15:39 »
please do not. gay marriage is two people of the same gender, no matter what sexuality they are so please, do not.

I had to look at Collins' and the "Diccionario de la Real Academia Española" to confirm my doubt: in Spanish, it only refers to males, whereas in English is to both, but specially to men.

Darn, I just wanted to throw a spark of lol in this sea of nothing to be see-n.



But they don't only feature Japanese characters so that's completely irrelevant. Have you actually watched any J-Dramas?


At first, I was scared, since I thought that, due to the fact that answer was adressed to Joeno, Turner meant Joeno-Drama. Terrified, I googled that term and I only found Japanese Dramas, something most of us neither have watched nor intend to "N-Joy". Nevertheless, I would like an explanation of what is the main difference between these, Soap Operas and "regular dramas". Perhaps then I/we will be able to grasp the grace of this argument.
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Offline Joeno

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2014, 15:45 »
No, that is a complete jump to conclusions and you know it.

If you're going to deny what you write when I quote it, there is no point in continuing any further discussion. I quoted it earlier:

Quote
because it allowed males to get pregnant (as pictured in this thread already). Effectively there could be a lot of incestuous Mii children made with these games.

The only way to read the sentence is males pregnant => incestuous Mii children.

Just because it's not intended by the creators doesn't mean people can't get offended. We see this time and again with politicians and public figures apologizing for being ignorant about these issues.

This is absolute nonsense. You might as well say that Super Mario Bros is homophobic because it only portrays a heterosexual relationship,

There is a problem in videogame culture where same sex relationships are ignored or hated when they happen (see The Last Of Us for a recent example. That doesn't make it okay.

Quote
If you were to make the relationships same-sex, not only would massive parts of the game be re-written,

Mario saves handsome prince? Easy to write, change a few names and sprites. Luigi's Mansion didn't have a princess to save.

Quote
it's like WarioWare meets Animal Crossing meets Tamagotchi.

Animal Crossing was widely lauded for allowing your character to dress up in any clothes, none were gender specific, and some of the villagers in your town crushed on other villagers of the same sex (including the player character). If they can do it...

Quote
I think you're putting far more weight on the marriage mechanic than is actually needed. It is a tiny, unimportant part of the game that is done completely in parody.

If it's so unimportant, either update it to be a bit more universal or just leave it out.

Quote
But they don't only feature Japanese characters so that's completely irrelevant. Have you actually watched any J-Dramas?

That's not my point. My point is that if these restrictions were based on skin colour rather than sexuality, there would be far more of an outrage.

Just because other people do it doesn't make it right.
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Offline Turner

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2014, 16:00 »
The only way to read the sentence is males pregnant => incestuous Mii children.


No. There is a full stop between these two statements. They are separate.

Just because it's not intended by the creators doesn't mean people can't get offended. We see this time and again with politicians and public figures apologizing for being ignorant about these issues.

There is a problem in videogame culture where same sex relationships are ignored or hated when they happen (see The Last Of Us for a recent example. That doesn't make it okay.

Mario saves handsome prince? Easy to write, change a few names and sprites. Luigi's Mansion didn't have a princess to save.

I'm not talking about rewriting mario, I'm talking about rewriting Tomodachi Life. How about if you think it's so easy to patch out then you write a patch actually including it? And above that, you've completely missed the point. If Mario saved a handsome prince it wouldn't make any sense in the fairytale world depicted because in traditional fairytales the male protagonist saves the princess.

Amusing you should use this as an example because 1) Animal Crossing does not allow any skin colour outside of white and 2) No, there are no villagers who 'crush' on other animals or even the player of the same sex. Not unless you count 'Being nice' as 'Crushing' (which is ridiculous) and 3) Actually all the female clothes are specifically for females as the NPCs mention themselves. Just because you can wear them does not make them not gender specific.

And let's not forget, it's not Nintendo's responsibility to represent hetero or homosexual relationships. What they do with their game is their business and it's not anybody's right to a different game. Once again we come back to the musician + album example.

And as I've ALREADY SAID, if you made it 'more universal' you would completely nullify the entire mechanic in the first place. Please DO SOME RESEARCH. You've obviously not played this game and have absolutely no idea as to what the marriage mechanic is like. Maybe you should actually buy the game before you judge it.

Offline Joeno

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Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2014, 16:27 »
How about if you think it's so easy to patch out then you write a patch actually including it?

If you give me access to the source code I'll happily do so.

Quote
And let's not forget, it's not Nintendo's responsibility to represent hetero or homosexual relationships. What they do with their game is their business and it's not anybody's right to a different game. Once again we come back to the musician + album example.

And, in response, anyone has the right to give their opinion about Nintendo's decisions, call them out if they feel they have been handled inappropriately, make it clear they won't buy the game with the current design decisions (and take it into account for future purchase decisions) and otherwise discuss and state how they feel about the issue and whether they feel the right issue has been made.

At that point, bad PR and internal decision making may change their opinion (as it has in this case - as much as it's said to be core, Nintendo more or less said they'll do things differently in the future).
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