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Misc => Debate => Topic started by: Turner on July 30, 2013, 02:15
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Okay so if you've spent any time on the internet in the past year or so, you will have no doubt caught wind of a wave of Feminism that has really become a trending topic particularly thanks to places like tumblr and their predominantly female userbase. No doubt you will have seen the 'I need feminism because ______' meme which has spread all the way to sites like YouTube and Facebook too.
Conversely, on sites like Reddit there is a growing trend for young adult males, (Particularly My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic fans) known as 'Fedoras' for their penchant for well...wearing fedoras, who complain that they are 'nice guys' and that women are mean to them and put them in the 'friend zone' instead of dating them.
An SJW is a 'Social Justice Warrior' - someone who blogs intently, challenging the current social system and all its wrongdoings and marginalization. Many feminists also fall under this title, they can be extremely militant and often command straight/cis/white/able/skinny/etc. people to 'check their privilege'.
The whole topic is pretty convoluted and I can only hope the majority of people here know what I'm talking about or else this topic is gonna fall flat on its face.
Where do you place yourself on the feminism compass? Misogynist? Misandrist? Radfem? MRA? Do you think the whole thing is a load of crap that you'd rather not get involved in or are you behind the movement 100%?
tl;dr: let's all have a rape culture/nice guys/misogyny/fedora/feminism/SJW blow-out debate and call each other mean names (not really)
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I've been kind of sitting on this for about a day because there's so many rant worthy things in here that I just don't know where to start D:
So first, guys that whine about being "friendzoned for being NICE GUYS" are not "nice guys". If you think that being nice to a woman means that she is obligated to date/sleep with you, then you are not a "nice guy". If you get upset when she doesn't want to date/sleep with you, and start calling her all sorts of terrible things and stalking her and being a general creeper, YOU ARE NOT A NICE GUY. And maybe you should stop telling women to "get back in teh kitchen and make me a sammich lololol!!!11" while you're at it.
The SJW warrior movement I *hate*. I hate it, because according to SJWs, being a caucasian ablebodied heterosexual living in the first world makes me The Worst Person. The only thing that I have in my favour is the fact I'm a woman and can identify with some kind of "oppressed minority", or other such nonsense. (except not really though because "white girl problems!!!")
I sort of understand what they're trying to do, but hating on white people is not the answer to racism, hating straight people is not the answer to homophobia, hating men is not the answer to misogyny, #firstworldproblems memes will not end world hunger, etc etc. Fighting hate with hate will not solve any problems. Whining about social issues on Tumblr rather than, you know, doing anything, will not solve anything.
And uuuh feminism yeh. Again, as with SJW, the whole thing has been hijacked by people who just want an excuse to hate another group of people rather than addressing the issues at hand. The "I Need Feminism Because..." is a really though provoking, interesting campaign, and there are things I've read that even I didn't realise that I "need" feminism for until they were pointed out to me (internalised misogyny!!!).
I'm just a misanthropist who hates everyone.
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I sort of understand what they're trying to do, but hating on white people is not the answer to racism, hating straight people is not the answer to homophobia, hating men is not the answer to misogyny, #firstworldproblems memes will not end world hunger, etc etc. Fighting hate with hate will not solve any problems. Whining about social issues on Tumblr rather than, you know, doing anything, will not solve anything.
This is pretty much what I think. If your counter to Racism/Homophobia/Sexism is hating on the oppressors, then you, quite simply, are bringing yourself down to their level. Yes, it's unfair that its happening, but it is being attempted to be stopped, many people aren't Racist, it's a minority (although, still too many people).
One of my biggest hates with SJWs are the ones that complain when a heterosexual person says being gay is unnatural. It is. I am gay, and I know it's unnatural, if it were natural then we would be able to reproduce that way. Fair enough, people don't need to point out its unnatural, but people can't really complain when they do.
So first, guys that whine about being "friendzoned for being NICE GUYS" are not "nice guys". If you think that being nice to a woman means that she is obligated to date/sleep with you, then you are not a "nice guy". If you get upset when she doesn't want to date/sleep with you, and start calling her all sorts of terrible things and stalking her and being a general creeper, YOU ARE NOT A NICE GUY. And maybe you should stop telling women to "get back in teh kitchen and make me a sammich lololol!!!11" while you're at it.
This is true. The whole 'make me a sandwich' gets me annoyed too, it's just pathetic. It works in Subway, but anywhere else and they'll probably get slapped ;D.
With regards to feminism, in the UK & US, women are treated equally to men (or at least, for the most part are). Yes, you're always going to get the idiots who think men are superior, but I don't think there's much else for women to campaign for. I think feminism is important, as it won women the right to vote, we've had a female PM etc. I think of the three things, feminism is the only one that doesn't really annoy me.
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With regards to feminism, in the UK & US, women are treated equally to men ... I don't think there's much else for women to campaign for.
haha umm not really lol??
women still need to rally to be allowed permission to do what they want with their bodies
women are still blamed for being rape victims because they dress how they want
women are still paid less than men for doing the same jobs men do
women are still seen as weak; people still use words like 'pussy' and 'little girl' as insults
women are forced into a standard of beauty and judged based on how close to that standard they are
women are still objectified in the videogame industry and harrassed if they try to get involved in that industry
women are still catcalled against their will in the street. "hey sexy, nice tits" isnt a compliment, funnily enough
women are still just seen as a pair of tits and a vagina by a lot of people
women are still treated very inequally by the government. do you remember the filibuster not too long ago? and how wendy was forced to stand for thirteen hours and speak for the right to have an abortion? her appeal was almost completely ignored because she needed help adjusting her backbrace so she could continue speaking for those thirteen hours, and even through all of her hard work and crowd support, the bill she was appealing against was still passed by a male from the same government without him having to stand for thirteen hours to say why he should have control over a womans body. she was not taken seriously at all.
women are still not taken seriously in a lot of life situations. they can vote, a woman was pm, but that is NOT equal.
and the fact we even have to be fighting for a womans right to do ANYTHING is a shining example of misogyny in the world today.
women should be able to live equally as men, have the right to their own bodies, be able to go out to a party or out at night without fear of being taken advantage of, be able to play videogames without seeing themselves objectified by the industry theyre supporting, and overall be able to exist without being seen as inferior or sex objects by anyone.
theres a lot to still campaign for, man, get your head out your ass.
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^ thank you I didn't really touch on this yet because I wasn't sure how/what I wanted to say but this is pretty much it
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women are still paid less than men for doing the same jobs men do
This is illegal, certainly in the UK, I don't know about in the US.
women are still catcalled against their will in the street. "hey sexy, nice tits" isnt a compliment, funnily enough
Yes, but this is often (not always, I know) made by drunks
women are still just seen as a pair of tits and a vagina by a lot of people
And many woman view men in a similar (obviously not the same ;D) manner. I'm not excusing this; it is utterly disgusting that people do think like this, but it goes both ways. (Although, I agree, for the most part it is men thinking it.)
To be honest, I think a lot of this view is the media, which is one area I think feminism really needs to campaign at. How many good portrayals of woman are there compared to bad in media? I think many feminists would have a heart attack if they saw DCs female characters (See Black Canary, Wonder Woman etc.). This is a lot of the reason this viewpoint is thought. If the media put a little more thought into the portrayal, it may help.
But still, a majority of men (discounting when drunk) do see woman as equals. There will always be extremists, that isn't going to stop, but most of the population agrees that woman should be equal, and do treat them as such.
Most of the problems stem from some people (in the lowest sense of the word) not accepting the equality, and there isn't much we can do about that. We can't exactly say 'say anything negative towards woman and you go to jail / get a fine' we can't force people to change views.
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This is illegal, certainly in the UK, I don't know about in the US.
It still is illegal. Yet it happens anyway. People actually believe that they should be paid less because of the potential of a maternity leave. So it doesn't happen because they're women perse, it happens as "insurance" and it's pretty stupid.
Yes, but this is often (not always, I know) made by drunks
Nope. I've seen it happen plenty of times by sober people on their job.
And many woman view men in a similar (obviously not the same ;D) manner. I'm not excusing this; it is utterly disgusting that people do think like this, but it goes both ways. (Although, I agree, for the most part it is men thinking it.)
This is something that's case-by-case, since I think it's about even on both sides. Men are just more vocal about it because it's become a "guy" thing to do.
To be honest, I think a lot of this view is the media, which is one area I think feminism really needs to campaign at. How many good portrayals of woman are there compared to bad in media? I think many feminists would have a heart attack if they saw DCs female characters (See Black Canary, Wonder Woman etc.). This is a lot of the reason this viewpoint is thought. If the media put a little more thought into the portrayal, it may help.
Why? Skintight suits and revealing stuff? Sure there's an argument there but there's a lot of shirtless men in comics and video games too lol... most DBZ fights consist of someone losing their shirt. Portraying women as helplesss and as damsels in distress could further your argument more, but there's more of a push for stronger female protagonists as of late (see: FF13, FF13-2).
But still, a majority of men (discounting when drunk) do see woman as equals. There will always be extremists, that isn't going to stop, but most of the population agrees that woman should be equal, and do treat them as such.
Majority is hardly correct.
Most of the problems stem from some people (in the lowest sense of the word) not accepting the equality, and there isn't much we can do about that. We can't exactly say 'say anything negative towards woman and you go to jail / get a fine' we can't force people to change views.
lol thats not where the problem stems from
I would do some reading or research or legitimately talk to an actual feminist (one that's not a hypocrite, because I know a few [extreme] hypocrites IRL but I've met some legitimately nice feminists that will actually make you more aware of the issues)
also,
hating on white people is not the answer to racism
Hating on them, no, but the white male is a good reason as to why things like racism actually occur. I'll go into it upon request, but white americans did a great job setting off a vicious cycle for centuries that leads to racism for quite a few reasons. I also know a good amount of white people myself that believe that things like affirmative action is dumb and they wonder why a less qualified minority should take a job from a white person who's more qualified, which shows a perception that certain media is tailored to present facts in a dishonest way that leads to misinformation and ignorance.
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i try never to stand on fedoras, theyre not very supportive.
most of tumblr's social justice culture seems to be about who can build the biggest victim complex.
and then yeah, the people who hate white people/men/straight people/not-trans people/whoever because of OPPRESSIONN!!!!
and then make huge excuses to say "no, it's not REALLY sexism/racist mumble mumble institutionalised grumble", while in no way denying that they're being bigots.
i mean there definitely are white people who are racists and men who are sexists, that's p silly to deny, but it doesn't mean that you should presume that all will be... any more than you should presume that a (person in demographic) will do (typically associated or stereotyped demographic thing)
a lot of feminism on tumblr is another branch of the same culture.
not saying that there aren't sane and level feminists because a lot of people i know are sane and level headed feminists lmao.
but tumblr breeds this weird culture of OPPRESSION and THE PATRIARCHY and BENEVOLENT SEXISM and MISANDRY 4 LYF which makes me sigh and want to gently push people down a hill.
i'm 100% sure that there are similar people in the MRM on places like reddit or 4chan, but i don't frequent those places so i can't actively comment on that (also.... 4chan...)
as for the whole nice guy/friendzoned thing...
i see fewer people complaining about it, and more people complaining about the people who complain about it lmao.
ok so, if you think you're entitled to a relationship (and the emotional closeness and sex that goes with it) and get pissy because this person you're friends with won't put out, then you're a dick. nobody's entitled to have sex with somebody that they don't want to.
what i think *THINK* that some people are complaining about is... if they're told "i'm not interested in you in that way", but they're still besotted with the person and it still hurts, or they don't want to give emotional support if they know there's no chance of it developing... aka if they're not interested in being "just friends" because they were hoping for a relationship... then that's ok too?? as in, you can't make somebody be friends with you, and everyone's allowed to be upset at rejection. if they'd rather take a "let's see less of each other" than a "let's still be friends", then yknow that's their right.
if they start getting pissy along the lines of "i was always friends with you and we got on really well, you like me so why won't you go out with me?" then yeah, we're back in the youre-being-a-dick territory.
so i think there are two different kinds of ~friendzone~? which would explain the clash between the people who argue about it.
obviously there ARE people who think "no i'm entitled to xxyy" or "they don't want to hang out as much after i turned them down, they are a bad person instead of somebody with feelings".
clearly if you think that somebody is obliged to do something for your sake, then you're being a dick.
of any gender.
and it's kind of dumb to complain about it or to make it a Political thing beyond the whole general mess that is people/teenagers/hormones/love/sexuality/emotion/complications/whatever.
so uh re: social justice culture, i don't care for it.
not ~social justice~ itself... the idea that people should be treated equally and should not be denied the rights given to others and that everyone should have respect is 100% good yes fantastic please lets dO THIS!!
but the culture around it in places like tumblr, of oppression olympics, of ~privilege~ being an inverse measure of worth, of expecting to be taken seriously when youre saying things like "kill whitey!" and "castrate all the men!" and "die cis scum!" (and then backpeddling with "omg theyre just jokes, jokes dont do anyone any harm wait wtf you made a rape joke?? drink bleach!!! cmon you cant have it both ways, either both are Bad or both are Sometimes Acceptable).
tl;dr teenager mentality i guess.
this post nicely sums up my thoughts on it (http://noonereadstheurl.tumblr.com/post/53958696180/).
as for the gender movements specifically (aka feminism and the MRM)...
like i said there are a lot of toxic people on both sides, and the crazy people shout the loudest.
and there are things like false statistics and scaremongering (like i've said, i've only seen the feminist side of that, things like "1 in 4 women will be raped", "women earn 77c to the dollar that men do", "women own 1% of the world's land" and other incorrect statistics that are thrown around to fight a problem that either isn't there or is misinterpreted... which makes the actual movement itself look bad).
but fundamentally they're after admirable and good things (if you boil it down to "please can xxx be treated the same as yyy"), even if the people in them make me unwilling to call myself a feminist or an mra on the internet.
laughs fondly of memories of "you can't be a feminist if you're a man!" or "if you're not a feminist then you think that women should be in the kitchen!" all tugging on my arms in different directions.
so i just shrug and don't push it... i'm either both or neither, i guess?
i go with egalitarian, even though i've had it pointed out to me that it's tumblr's current favourite buzzword, it sums up my happy and painfully naive idealogical.
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It still is illegal. Yet it happens anyway. People actually believe that they should be paid less because of the potential of a maternity leave. So it doesn't happen because they're women perse, it happens as "insurance" and it's pretty stupid.
Nope. I've seen it happen plenty of times by sober people on their job.
What more can be done though? It's illegal; the government can't exactly do more. The point is, that despite some people's arrogance, law views both as equal.
This is something that's case-by-case, since I think it's about even on both sides. Men are just more vocal about it because it's become a "guy" thing to do.
Yeah, I'd say that's true
Why? Skintight suits and revealing stuff? Sure there's an argument there but there's a lot of shirtless men in comics and video games too lol... most DBZ fights consist of someone losing their shirt. Portraying women as helplesss and as damsels in distress could further your argument more, but there's more of a push for stronger female protagonists as of late (see: FF13, FF13-2).
I agree that it is starting to change for the better, even games like Portal have a female protagonist. But there is still a lot of negative portrayals (on both sides, yes, but I'd say its mainly on women)
Majority is hardly correct.
Well, take this thread for instance, everyone who has posted has been in favour of equality.
lol thats not where the problem stems from
Saying 'lol' really doesn't help me take you seriously
I would do some reading or research or legitimately talk to an actual feminist (one that's not a hypocrite, because I know a few [extreme] hypocrites IRL but I've met some legitimately nice feminists that will actually make you more aware of the issues)
I know many feminists, and I've read several articles on the subject (Mainly for English write-ups and stuff)
I didn't want to quote each bit separately, so my comments are emboldened.
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what i think *THINK* that some people are complaining about is... if they're told "i'm not interested in you in that way", but they're still besotted with the person and it still hurts, or they don't want to give emotional support if they know there's no chance of it developing... aka if they're not interested in being "just friends" because they were hoping for a relationship... then that's ok too?? as in, you can't make somebody be friends with you, and everyone's allowed to be upset at rejection. if they'd rather take a "let's see less of each other" than a "let's still be friends", then yknow that's their right.
if they start getting pissy along the lines of "i was always friends with you and we got on really well, you like me so why won't you go out with me?" then yeah, we're back in the youre-being-a-dick territory.
I think this gets lost a lot too.
It's all very well to say 'All men care about is our boobs, they treat us like sex objects instead of human beings!' and demand equality, but you kind of defeat the purpose when you assume that Friend Zone = 'I couldn't have sex with you and that makes me sad'. If you really love someone then being put in the friend zone will hurt, unrequited love always hurts and it's not as easy as 'Oh I'll just be your friend instead'.
I do agree with a lot of feminism, but I do a quick 180 whenever it starts turning into 'Stop thinking ______' or imposing on personal freedoms. There was a South Korean notice sheet thingy that went into circulation in tumblr and had all the SJWs and Feminists jumping for joy. It was basically guidelines for guys on how to act around women, particularly late at night. A couple of the points really irked me:
One of them was 'Don't pee in public or else a woman will think you are going to rape her' and 'If a woman gets into a elevator alone, don't get in with her - wait for the next one to come, because it can be unsettling for the woman'.
I don't like the way this kind of marginalizes men, I don't mean to go all MRA on this or anything but what exactly are we solving by creating bigger divides? What next? Do we have to sit at the back of the bus too? Wow I wonder what that reminds me of..
I think the idea of 'teach men not to rape' is silly too, and patronizing. Who came up with this assumption that every male is a rapist until taught otherwise? Rapists are rapists, they are criminals - they know they are doing something wrong and no, the 'data' you have about men allegedly not knowing what counts as rape is not relevant. It's like if you catch a shoplifter you get the same excuses 'Oh I thought being drunk and passed out meant she wanted it' 'Oh I thought because it was just stood there unattended I could take it' 'Well if she dresses like that she's asking for it' 'Well if you display those goods outside you're just asking for someone to steal it'. They're excuses, nothing more.
I do sympathise with women though, I sympathise with so much of feminism and I genuinely support it, but it makes me sad that there are so many extremists, not just because it makes feminism look bad, but because it makes me feel bad as a male. Is this really the future some people want for us? It's hard to support a noble cause when the most vocal portion of that cause thinks you're a potential rapist and a sexual assault case waiting to happen from birth, oh and naturally you don't respect women so that will have to be drilled into you too. No free thinking allowed.
The other side of the coin isn't much better either, it's just kneejerk reaction fuelled by kneejerk reaction which fuels another kneejerk reaction until everyone's an extremist and people are more divided than ever. We need empathy more than anything, not being forced to pick between two awful sides, we get enough of that with politics.
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spoiler: i apparently have lots of Things to say on this apologies in advance.
I do agree with a lot of feminism, but I do a quick 180 whenever it starts turning into 'Stop thinking ______' or imposing on personal freedoms. There was a South Korean notice sheet thingy that went into circulation in tumblr and had all the SJWs and Feminists jumping for joy. It was basically guidelines for guys on how to act around women, particularly late at night. A couple of the points really irked me:
One of them was 'Don't pee in public or else a woman will think you are going to rape her' and 'If a woman gets into a elevator alone, don't get in with her - wait for the next one to come, because it can be unsettling for the woman'.
I don't like the way this kind of marginalizes men, I don't mean to go all MRA on this or anything but what exactly are we solving by creating bigger divides? What next? Do we have to sit at the back of the bus too? Wow I wonder what that reminds me of...
and, again, talking about tumblr here because that seems to be where a lot of the madfems hang out... it does quite often curl around into this "it's justified if you hate or distrust men, because men are [whatever]".
which is. uh.
if you have had bad experiences with a particular group of people then it's understandable that you'd be nervous and uncomfortable around them... but it shouldn't be encouraged because then you're justifying yourself to being unable to deal with half the population.
there's this popular idea on tumblr of "schrodinger's rapist", which basically says "women see a strange man and don't know he's a rapist.. so they fear that he might be, so you have to respect that".
which in theory sounds reasonable, but it segregates men out as having to show responsibility towards women's fear, which is kind of......... problematic (another buzzword!).
if it was with anything else, say a particular race of people... even if, in a certain area, more crimes were committed by people of x race... saying "it's justified to be nervous" would be thrown out as bigotry.
a lot of it i think does have roots in the media. violence against women is more shocking... think how often you see, in horrors or violent thrillers, a man brutally/graphically murdered, versus a woman brutally/graphically murdered... (hell, there was a fps game which had its rating jump drastically because some of the villains were women, iirc).
it plays on our fears of things being extra bad when they happen to a women. the same for rape, television dramas and things will add rape in as "worse than death", the shock tactic of a woman being raped as a default "awful experience".
all of this adds into the atmosphere of "it is more dangerous for women, and women should be scared when they're walking alone, and women are always at risk", which really isn't helping anyone. i can't honestly condone paranoia and fear that's disproportionate to risk. yes there are bad neighbourhoods and yes there are always risks wherever you go, but most rapes occur by somebody known to the victim, not by somebody jumping out from behind a tree on a dark street. and even though men are at much higher risk of all other forms of violent crime, the same emphasis is not placed on them being in danger.
i'm not saying all of this as a matter of ~privilege~ or something, which is what a lot of these debates seem to turn into (and lbr that doesn't help anyone really). i'm agreeing that it's something that shouldn't happen because it's not helping anyone.
it's not helping the women who feel they have to be afraid, and it's not helping the men who are constantly under suspicion.
i'd like the "schrodinger's rapist" theory a lot more if it was simply "don't try to scare other people and generally don't be a dick to them".
I think the idea of 'teach men not to rape' is silly too, and patronizing. Who came up with this assumption that every male is a rapist until taught otherwise? Rapists are rapists, they are criminals - they know they are doing something wrong and no, the 'data' you have about men allegedly not knowing what counts as rape is not relevant. It's like if you catch a shoplifter you get the same excuses 'Oh I thought being drunk and passed out meant she wanted it' 'Oh I thought because it was just stood there unattended I could take it' 'Well if she dresses like that she's asking for it' 'Well if you display those goods outside you're just asking for someone to steal it'. They're excuses, nothing more.
a lot of the examples of victim blaming are given by people like defence attorneys, who aren't exactly known to be that sympathetic with the accusing party.
when victim blaming DOES happen, it suffers a lot of media backlash (and rightly so!), for example the steubenville rape fiasco with CNN was p disgusting... but the overwhelming consensus (that i've seen, amongst people i know) was that it WAS disgusting, rather than people shrugging and going "yeah whatever they got what was coming to them".
also the case/backlash/calls to resign for justice robert dewar in canada. some feminists act like only they are the ones with eyes open enough to see and get outraged by this (and then use that as evidence of "nobody cares"), but it's not the case.
rape is a difficult issue because it's a sensitive one... i agree that it should be gender-neutral though. otherwise you're belittling people who have been raped or assaulted by saying it doesn't matter as much, or doesn't technically exist, or is replaced by a crime with a lesser sentence (forced into sex -> sexual assault, not rape).
in the uk rape is defined by penetration, so... bad luck to the women and men and children raped by women i guess ~shrug~.
consent needs to be taught to people yes, and that they shouldn't feel forced into anything.
other than that... you can only say "teach people not to rape!" so many times.
how can you teach people not to rape? other than saying, don't rape... other than making rape illegal, and (male) rapists shunned, shamed and sometimes beaten up or forced to move (even if the case never went to court)... as i said above, rape (of a woman) is seen as awful... rapists are the lowest on the prison hierarchy aside from child molesters.
people KNOW that rape is awful. but criminals still commit crimes. people know that murder/theft is wrong, but it still happens.
and the group of people on tumblr who say "telling women to take precautions is victim blaming!" is just... nrrrggg. no, it's not your fault. no, you shouldn't be paranoid, but at the same time you shouldn't let a thought experiment protect you, so watch your drink, don't get drunk alone if you don't know your limits, don't pass out alone somewhere which could leave you vulnerable, don't turn down self-defence classes because "rape culture".
and don't leave your house unlocked when you go out, don't leave the engine running in your car when you're not in it, don't wear the wrong football colours in the wrong place. because even though what happens to you won't be your fault, it won't make it any less terrible.
The other side of the coin isn't much better either, it's just kneejerk reaction fuelled by kneejerk reaction which fuels another kneejerk reaction until everyone's an extremist and people are more divided than ever. We need empathy more than anything, not being forced to pick between two awful sides, we get enough of that with politics.
pretty much, a lot of it does all turn into "who can throw the most mud".
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What more can be done though? It's illegal; the government can't exactly do more. The point is, that despite some people's arrogance, law views both as equal.
That's why people protest -_-
Well, take this thread for instance, everyone who has posted has been in favour of equality.
like 8 people is a poor sample size, any core statistics class or article could tell you that
Saying 'lol' really doesn't help me take you seriously
that sucks
I know many feminists, and I've read several articles on the subject (Mainly for English write-ups and stuff)
but have you talked to feminists in person? You can devour articles all you want but it's the conversation that matters most in terms of understanding.
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like 8 people is a poor sample size, any core statistics class or article could tell you that
Yes, but any lawyer will tell you a unanimous verdict is powerful. I know 8 people isn't really a great sample, but I think if we posted a (anonymous) poll on the site, the statistics would show a majority do support equal rights. Of course, this poll would be rather pointless as its obvious what the outcome would be.
Also, just to specify; by a majority I meant a majority in the UK, I can't really speak for any other country.
but have you talked to feminists in person? You can devour articles all you want but it's the conversation that matters most in terms of understanding.
Funnily enough, when I say I know feminists I mean I've talked to them.
Again, comments emboldened.
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to be honest, you'd be very hard-pressed to find somebody who doesn't say that they support equal rights.
the problem is that everyone has a different idea on what is equal.
those who say that white/male/straight people should be discriminated against, for example, may say that they're doing it as some kind of equality payback, and would call themselves advocates for equality despite the bigotry.
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Yes, but any lawyer will tell you a unanimous verdict is powerful. I know 8 people isn't really a great sample, but I think if we posted a (anonymous) poll on the site, the statistics would show a majority do support equal rights. Of course, this poll would be rather pointless as its obvious what the outcome would be.
Also, just to specify; by a majority I meant a majority in the UK, I can't really speak for any other country.
I don't think you've ever been to the US but I don't think that number is anywhere close to 100% let alone 70%. Or maybe it is. There's a lot that goes into it, and someone can say "I support equal rights" then go through a questionnaire that directly contradicts his stated view.
Funnily enough, when I say I know feminists I mean I've talked to them.
about feminism tho?
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I don't think you've ever been to the US but I don't think that number is anywhere close to 100% let alone 70%. Or maybe it is. There's a lot that goes into it, and someone can say "I support equal rights" then go through a questionnaire that directly contradicts his stated view.
I have been to the U.S. several times (10 times I think, 6 to Florida and 4 touring the west coast), but I wouldn't judge a country on a few visits. I know the figure wouldn't be 100%, I do think, however, that most men do want woman equal, although they may upset them unintentionally, for example when drunk, or even just not thinking they'd take much offence.
about feminism tho?
How would I know they were feminists if I hadn't? So to answer your question; yes.
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I have been to the U.S. several times (10 times I think, 6 to Florida and 4 touring the west coast), but I wouldn't judge a country on a few visits. I know the figure wouldn't be 100%, I do think, however, that most men do want woman equal, although they may upset them unintentionally, for example when drunk, or even just not thinking they'd take much offence.
You're pretty close minded if you legitimately believe it's 100%. Is it because they seem like nice people or what? You missed my point entirely btw, people can say they like equality but if you ask them certain questions that are relevant to this debate then they may not agree. Just because people can say they're all for it doesn't necessarily mean that when the vote comes down they will pick the side that favors it.
How would I know they were feminists if I hadn't? So to answer your question; yes.
I get the feeling that you're just making smartass remarks to my questions because I kept them so vague
Have you ever had a good, long conversation about feminism with them? What did they say to you specifically? What did you learn about the other side?
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You're pretty close minded if you legitimately believe it's 100%. Is it because they seem like nice people or what?
I said that I know the figure isnt 100%
You missed my point entirely btw, people can say they like equality but if you ask them certain questions that are relevant to this debate then they may not agree.
Its the same with everything though; you may agree with something but their may be one aspect you don't agree with. This doesn't mean you're against it. I know many men wouldn't agree on some parts (specifically, as Sylar said, using 'little girl' as an insult, but is this any worse to woman calling men dickheads?)
Just because people can say they're all for it doesn't necessarily mean that when the vote comes down they will pick the side that favors it.
This is true. But I suppose the only way to tell is for the government to do a referendum, which they likely won't because they have more pressing matters (from their point of view).
I get the feeling that you're just making smartass remarks to my questions because I kept them so vague
Have you ever had a good, long conversation about feminism with them? What did they say to you specifically? What did you learn about the other side?
Reasonably long, yes. They mainly said that problems stem from Media and that the current issues feminists are dealing with are mainly the negative image of, as Sylar put it, 'just a pair of tits and a vagina'.
Again, comments in bold.
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i swore i wouldn't get involved in this but oh well
for the record my opinion on tumblr's overtly sjw ironic intersectionality stuff and reddit's "no we're not mysogynistic honest" mra-ism is that both sides are nerds who don't get out at all and have weird ideas about the world but that goes w/o saying
I get the feeling that you're just making smartass remarks to my questions because I kept them so vague
Have you ever had a good, long conversation about feminism with them? What did they say to you specifically? What did you learn about the other side?
Reasonably long, yes. They mainly said that problems stem from Media and that the current issues feminists are dealing with are mainly the negative image of, as Sylar put it, 'just a pair of tits and a vagina'.
i hope they made the important distinction that third-wave feminism =/= post-feminism and if you told them "no but they don't have any thing to campaign for really" they told you why that was wrong and why it was especially rich of you to say that
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im curious as to what feminism is doing to address the issues of body image and media representation.
this isnt a sarcastic question btw, im genuinely asking here. with people who are involved with feminism and hopefully less likely to be sj warrior about it haha.
campaigning to change laws-- solid things in writing-- is one thing (and has in the past been effective yes), but how would a group of people go about trying to change social perceptions?
or "smash the patriarchy" as i see being repeated a lot.
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I know I'm quite interested in feminism, and a lot of the ways I try to change perspectives is by attitudes.
For starters, I think that one problem we have is how men are afraid to look 'feminine' even though for many women being 'masculine' is considered a normal personality trait. So while I don't go 'OH MY GOD YOU GUYS SHOULD TOTALLY DO THIS THIS AND THIS', a lot of it is me chipping in 'Nothing wrong with that!' when these kind of things come up, and trying not to make a big deal over things that other people might pull faces at. So for example if I hear about a guy crying over something or liking pink, I don't bat an eyelid unless other people are, in which case I comment how it's no big deal. One of the big things I DO try to push a little is that I think it's cool for guys to wear skirts... Hey, if girls can wear trousers.
I also keep the conversation alive about body image. This is especially important to me because I am naturally, genuinely, /bone/ skinny. Like, to the point where people wonder if I'm anorexic. And it really worries me when people say things like 'You're so lucky' because you know, my body shape isn't any healthier than being naturally overweight, and to aspire to be as skinny as this seems really worrying to me... I'm actually trying to put on weight if anything, which is surprisingly difficult, and I'm someone who LOVES food (see my obsessings about deep fried pizza). So, I avoid any and all fat shaming wherever I can, and whenever someone uses the words 'thin' and 'pretty' as something interchangeable, I usually step up to challenge it.
Finally, although my writing tends to stay between me and my friends, I do still try and make sure my characters are proportionately representative. Some of them are insecure females. Some of them are girly-but-self-asserted females. Some of them are very tomboyish females. (And then this of course goes vice versa - I have my share of 'tough guys' and 'sensitive guys'.) If nothing else I think this also helps me to evaluate my own views on the topic, but again, a lot of it is about the little things.
In the end of the day, though while the big legal changes and discussions are important, I think where we're going to see the real changes is through generally rethinking our opinions in day-to-day life. Which doesn't mean leaping up to challenge someone at their every comment (though you do have to do that occasionally) but instead focusing most on how you can set an example with your own attitude. But then, that's just me - I don't speak for every feminist.
(I also get engaged into a lot of debates around the topic, but debates are less about changing other people's minds, and more for learning about all the sides of the story, and forming your own opinion for yourself)
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im curious as to what feminism is doing to address the issues of body image and media representation.
this isnt a sarcastic question btw, im genuinely asking here. with people who are involved with feminism and hopefully less likely to be sj warrior about it haha.
campaigning to change laws-- solid things in writing-- is one thing (and has in the past been effective yes), but how would a group of people go about trying to change social perceptions?
or "smash the patriarchy" as i see being repeated a lot.
i wrote a massive reply and then my computer died lmao
important lesson kids verbosity is a gamble w/ sods law
but yeah modern day feminism is partly about disestablishing the whole "ideal lady" thing in the media and within people in general atm tbh like thats a strong core concept which a lot of people dont get if they haven't had to be under pressure to be pretty ladies and just got away with duderoles of "make up and moisturiser and toner??? hah!! what are you, gay???" and so on
like this is all in the big balloon of """"patriachy"""" that feminism is attempting to take down cos it harms not only ladies but dudes as well in the end
like thats what a lot of the riot grrl (read up on it!! aaaaaaaa) ---> modern day DIY all-inclusive scenes brought about is the spirit for people to stop worrying about what is and isn't ladylike and just do it and sod everyone else or what they think
i know the spice girls happened and implemented a terribly mass-marketed version of this but lets face it that was a record exec's cringeworthy idea as That Joke In Spaced demonstrates
like women have been facing aggro about not looking Perfect (i.e. the Mary Beard (the classicist not the suffragist) drama thats been happening) so this isn't anything new but its only recently that people have been seen more kind of combatting body image issues etc.
well i say recently but people on tumblr treat it as if its this magical new thing so
its kind of a huge thing that only pushing for general change and time and urging people to be sensible and reasonable and not trying to boss other peoples looks around (i.e. getting out more and not being a People Skills moron about it all) are gonna grant b/c you see people trying
but you also see the numbers of people who still make idiot comments like "gb2kitchen" and so forth and then they sit there and wonder why they're single
this isn't my best Feminist Literature but its good enough i hope
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so done by things like women just doing whatever they want and gradually making people accepting it, rather than Some Big Protest haha, aight i was assuming something like that.
personally i dont believe in the whole patriarchy deal... i believe that society pushes gender roles on both men and women yes... but the term "patriarchy" implies that... idk all the men sat in a circle and thought up ways to Oppress the women, which is silly. or implies that men have all the advantages and aren't disadvantaged due to society, where women are of lesser value and don't perpetrate gender roles at all.
but hey whether or not i agree with it, there still are gender enforced roles (ive seen the term gender-kyriarchy used but that seems a bit too SJW for me haha).
some feminists say that because of the "smashing the patriarchy" (i.e. trying to wash out the media image of the ideal lady, women taking more STEM careers etc), men are also being helped and so don't need a movement of their own.
which is kind of dumb because... feminism focuses on women, the name kind of implies that.
as does the fact that feminism has done numerous things to specifically help women, and nothing of the same for men, which is... not very equal haha.
its good to have a movement focusing on womens rights, i get baffled when you get people who say "the MRM doesnt need to exist!! feminism is helping men too!" (usually the same kind of people who then go "bringing up male rape victims in this discussion of rape is DERAILING" lmao).
ok that didnt really have anything to do with anything, i forgot what i was talking about.
oh yeah, gender roles.
feminism did a lot to help women escape their gender boxes... as did the development of human industry and technology and stuff. instead of only having the choice of physical labour (where men overall would have a physical advantage due to testosterone and body build etc), women are just as able to do intellectual work as men. so when those kinds of avenues opened up there was more appeal to work for women (and then giving people a kick up the arse to let women work helped as well haha).
so for things like clothes... women used to not wear trousers because it was deemed weird and not feminine.
p sure queen victoria didnt like the idea, remember reading something about that haha. but women got more FREEDOM and now can wear trousers or suits or overalls or idk whatever they want to wear.
girls (socially acceptably) can play with lego or meccano or toy cars or science kits or be obsessed with dinosaurs or space or whatever. being a tomboy isnt that worrying in most western cultures. some people are going to be backwards about it or will insist that girls should do ~girly~ things (and theres def an infuriating divide between "for girls" and "for boys" marketed things)... but yeah, reverse the genders and its seen as really weirded up for boys to be in the bright-pink "girls" section of the toy store, or to play with dolls or wear pink or like glitter or play with toy cookers.
men are expected to be masculine as much (if not more? see below paragraph) as women are expected to be feminine... its a double-edged sword.
men and women are expected to stay in their gender boxes. but women have, thanks to feminism (wooo!) been able to do things like wear trousers and have careers and join the army and, in the Western world, have no laws denied to them which are allowed to men.
which makes it a bit silly when people say "men not being allowed to wear women's clothes is MISOGYNY"... no, its not misogyny any more than women historically not being allowed to wear trousers is misandry... its gender roles.
which yknow, society's gender roles.
obviously id be talking out of my arse saying "lol women have it easy"... the mary beard thing i remember yes, as well as the scrutiny that female celebrities face regarding looks (in magazines aimed towards females?? wtf) and the way that appearances are treated. theres no denying that in terms of appearance, men can get away with looking more ~weathered~ and worn than women can by the end of the day.
i guess that men are more judged on social status, income and career rather than ~body shape~ even though there are expectations and ideologies about that in the media etc etc.
yup there are still some (luckily older) people who are Set In The Old Ways. hopefully though, keep this up and the old ways will die out as more and more people accept that ~gasp~ women are also people?? weird.
kind of like tattoos and piercings, fewer and fewer people are bothered by them, even though some places dont like employees to have them, its much better than it used to be because its something thats more common, and society is forced to shape itself around it.
tl;dr i agree with the "AHHH WHO CARES JUST DO IIIITTT" tone of voice before executives for nike arrest me for copyright infringement.
ALTHOUGH (again, hello) one field in which i think women are definitely, definitely disadvantaged is in (stand-up, particularly) comedy... theyre judged much faster on stage and treated as some kind of separate category of comedian blurrghh.
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Interesting further note you might find about gender roles: Just because women are 'allowed' to wear trousers doesn't mean it's actually as acceptable as you might think. I'm someone who refuses to wear skirts/dresses, and no lie, people mocked me behind my back when I chose to wear trousers to school. I also got into three separate arguments with different people over the fact that I chose *gasp* not to wear a dress to prom (I was still dressed smart, just in trousers rather than a dress). People just get uncomfortable when I'm not girl enough for their liking, for some reason.
People make a really big deal about people fitting into their assigned 'gender boxes'. I do think something that would help everyone would be to make people think of gender as a 'spectrum' rather than a 'one or the other' - killing a few birds with one stone, really, as it might take some of the drama out of 'fitting into your box' which helps guys, girls and anyone in between. But then I don't know how effective that would be.
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aye, i wont deny that kids are evil when it comes to judging other people for how they dress. which sounds like im belitting it gdi, schools and things are the worst for "lol youre doing things differently"... so yeah that they may not react well to a boy wearing a dress either.
like eddie izzard talking about how he was attacked by some people while wearing a dress, and their defence was that he started it, because he obviously was wearing his FIGHTING DRESS. and yknow, parents flipping out over their son being ~wrong~ and stuff like that, thats a common theme. there will be parents who worry over their girl being a tomboy, but i cant imagine any parents doing the latter but not the former.
man i sound like im doing the oppression olympics thing blrurgrklryyrggg im not trying to, honest, im just saying... it does go both ways >:
BUT yes youre not saying "and this shows that women arent taken seriously!", which is the silly thing that i guess im arguing against... even though nobody here is saying it. im kind of dumb (drunk).
the gender spectrum is a fun idea, a la "just do what you want wooooo!", but then you get down into the void of SJW gender identity which is a terrifying place.
but they ruin everything.
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And many woman view men in a similar way
That Diet Coke advert with the man in the lift/window cleaner. And more recently, the Malteasers advert with the women at the man stripper show.
There would be outrage if there was a 'ladvert' doing it the other way round.
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That Diet Coke advert with the man in the lift/window cleaner. And more recently, the Malteasers advert with the women at the man stripper show.
There would be outrage if there was a 'ladvert' doing it the other way round.
"Ladverts" are a little different... showing off that certain things make you a man, and that other things make you less of a man (or not a man at all). Like Yorkie, "Man Fuel For Man Stuff", or the McCoys adverts where suggesting that you ask for directions makes you less of a man and less deserving of something as silly as a packet of crisps. I feel way more uncomfortable about these kinds of adverts than those that objectify men. I don't feel like more of a man for taking my shopping bags home on my own. I don't feel like less of a man for daring to ask for directions. It doesn't remotely bother me that women would objectify men in adverts because that's people do in real life. It's how a lot of people choose their partners. For me it's just one of those things (besides, I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this planet has treated some man or woman like an object). I think this would be the same the other way around; I think it would be more damaging to infer that certain things make someone more or less of a woman than to objectify women in a 30 second video clip.
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"Ladverts" are a little different... showing off that certain things make you a man, and that other things make you less of a man (or not a man at all). Like Yorkie, "Man Fuel For Man Stuff", or the McCoys adverts where suggesting that you ask for directions makes you less of a man and less deserving of something as silly as a packet of crisps. I feel way more uncomfortable about these kinds of adverts than those that objectify men. I don't feel like more of a man for taking my shopping bags home on my own. I don't feel like less of a man for daring to ask for directions. It doesn't remotely bother me that women would objectify men in adverts because that's people do in real life. It's how a lot of people choose their partners. For me it's just one of those things (besides, I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this planet has treated some man or woman like an object). I think this would be the same the other way around; I think it would be more damaging to infer that certain things make someone more or less of a woman than to objectify women in a 30 second video clip.
I agree with this totally, it's definitely one-sided to complain about adverts which objectify women when there are plenty that do the same for men, but it doesn't really bother me personally. Sex sells and adverts like that appeal to the lowest common denominator of consumer. I think it's tacky to be honest, but what winds me up more is this 'MAN CRISPS' 'It's not for girls!' etc. crap. I hate the 'real man' idea and I think it's dumb, all you do with adverts like that is homogenize society. I also disagree with trans* labels in this sense too, I don't understand how someone can say they dislike traditional gender roles but claim they're 'male' now because they identify as 'male'. What exactly IS 'male'? You're not really becoming male, you're just conforming to traditional gender roles and reenforcing the idea that men should act/look a certain way.
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Minor disagreement on the 'trans*' thing here. What someone who is trans* wants more than anything is to BE that sex/gender, and one of the ways to get close to that is by behaving more like that other gender. Is it conforming to stereotypes which maybe aren't true/are bad for society/etc.? Yes, of course it is. But because people are so ingrained in those stereotypes, there's no way they'll perceive you as anything but if you don't act within those role, so even if you disagree with it, of course you're going to feel pressured into acting that way just to convince people that this is who you really are.
More than that - hey, just because I don't think people should be box-set, doesn't mean I necessarily think we shouldn't have a sense of masculine and feminine. I know lots of girls who love feeling girly by wearing pretty skirts and flowers and pink, and if that makes them feel effeminate, that's fine. And I'm sure there are lots of mothers who would be very proud to stay at home and take care of their families. Beyond that I also believe that there ARE differences between the average male and female psyche, due to hormonal differences and blah - in fact, there is a condition with some females where their ovaries aren't producing as much estrogen, and a lot of these people are trans* but no longer feel that way after the problem has been resolved. So, in my view, the problem isn't with having common gender roles; it's when people want you to fit into them, and are surprised/judgemental if you don't.
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I hate the 'real man' idea and I think it's dumb
I think it's one of those words/phrases like 'respect', 'literally' and 'banter' that has had its meaning disrupted in the last few years. Some of the stuff that James May does is what I like being defined as the 'real man'. You know, sheds, power tools, classic cars, gadgets, that sort of thing.
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... how is your definition of a "real man" any different to what Turner was (probably) referring to? You've just reiterated what you've said has been "disrupted".
The issue I have is with the concept of a "real man" in general. The fact that I have no interest in any of the things that you mentioned doesn't make me any less "real", or any less of a man. It's the whole "typical bloke" image that makes me think I'm neither typical or a bloke.
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It's demographic based. The man fuel for man stuff, man crisps, have you got a WKD side? etc are all aimed at the 18-30 group who are more likely to be found (in the advertiser's mind) in the pub on a Saturday afternoon watching the football and having a bit of 'banter' rather than someone who'll be at home reading a book or doing the gardening.
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It is demographic based, same as any sexist advertising, but I just find it tacky and ridiculous. I don't understand what's so 'manly' about sitting at a pub chugging pints and talking about football and eating crisps. The majority of those people are bigots and tools and I'd rather they didn't act as though they are the gold standard of the male species in the UK.
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Same for here in America.
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Primarily, I think the whole nice guys finish last drivel is just a scapegoat people use to justify why people don't want to have a relationship with them or have sex with them. If you bend over backside and lick a girl's feet she's probably not going to go out with you. She has no reason or obligation to have a relationship/sex with you just because you're letting her use you and there are many reasons why she's not going to go out with you other than "girls are b***hes who love douchebags nice guys finish last wah wah wah!". If she's not physically attracted to you, or she thinks you're dull or she actually doesn't think she can ever see you more than a friend you should respect that. :) I've been friendzoned before, it wasn't nice, I moved on, but I don't have the right to complain that she rejected me because I was too nice, because that's dumb.
I don't know much about the whole SJW "movement", but from what I have read it just seems plain ridiculous. If you want to change society, then go and bloody do something about it. Complaining and spewing hatred fuelled pish via your tumblr account isn't going to change the world, it just makes you look stupid.
Millitant feminism pisses me off. The approach they have just stinks of degrading men rather than advancing rights and equality for women, which, again, isn't going to solve any problems. If anything they're just alienating the cause of feminism and making people (in "society", but that word seems to mean bugger all) more reluctant to actually try and make a change. Traditional feminism is a just cause, but some of the problems that have been outlined I believe have been blown out of proportion, but maybe I wouldn't know because I'm a white cis male who lives in London and I'm therefore more privileged than everyone else. Suck it.
It is demographic based, same as any sexist advertising, but I just find it tacky and ridiculous. I don't understand what's so 'manly' about sitting at a pub chugging pints and talking about football and eating crisps. The majority of those people are bigots and tools and I'd rather they didn't act as though they are the gold standard of the male species in the UK.
I'm probably interpreting this wrong, but what makes people bigots because they like to have a pint and a packet of crisps at the pub? I don't think that's a fair assumption to make. Unless you're talking about the advertisers trying to imprint that behaviour as being "manly" then I understand.
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I'm probably interpreting this wrong, but what makes people bigots because they like to have a pint and a packet of crisps at the pub? I don't think that's a fair assumption to make. Unless you're talking about the advertisers trying to imprint that behaviour as being "manly" then I understand.
Yes that's primarily it. What the 'bigot' thing also refers to is the fact that these adverts target bigots. I'm obviously not saying everyone who goes to the pub and watches football is a racist hooligan who beats their wives, but they make up a large part of that demographic. That advertising also reminds me of some of the comments Danny Dyer made about slashing a woman's face so nobody else will want her. The fact that some twisted advertisers will encourage and support the myth that these types of people are 'real men' makes me sick. I don't agree with a 'real man' concept no matter who it targets, but to target THESE people and make them seem as though they are normal and doing something right only encourages misogyny and bigotry.
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well i wasn't expecting general cognizance of the concept of present-day patriachial values this soon into the topic thats for sure
im disappointed i wanted drama
edit: nevermind
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Woohoo debate time. I'll add my two cents if I can even remember what the topic is about lol.
In my opinion, the notion that just by being nice to a girl means she's obliged to date/have sex with you is stupid. If she thinks you're boring, too nice or not fun to be around she won't have any sexual feelings toward you. This is especially true if you act awkwardly around her, because awkwardness is an immediate turn-off. There is however a difference between awkwardness and not saying anything; awkwardness as I'd describe it is stumbling over your words every time she tries to have a conversation with you, or asking meaningless questions as a means to make conversation. Women are people too, just have a conversation with them. I used to be socially awkward, until I realised that awkwardness makes you seem like a fool, now I can have conversations with women who I previously wouldn't have associated with, it's all a matter of having something to talk about.
Back to the topic of the friendzone, being in the friendzone is, in my opinion, only painful if you are madly in love with the girl you've been friendzoned by, and if it's an obsessive, one-way crush you try to make her like you, and you can't force that sort of thing.
For the record, I laugh when I see these guys in fedoras on Tumblr and the like complaining about why the 'girl of their dreams' doesn't give them the time of day. It's funny how they can dedicate so much energy into liking a person. It's not attractive when you're basically throwing yourself at a girl, because she sees you as the easy option, or she simply doesn't find you attractive, and that could be for a variety of reasons. And as ever, there is more to life than women.
Now for feminism. Oh joy. I despise feminism (especially the militant kind) because they campaign for 'equality' but still want all the benefits being a woman gives them. Like maternity leave, divorce court equality (which is currently biased heavily in favour of the woman), equal punishments for the same crimes and the time honoured 'you can't hit me I'm a girl!' thing. On the subject of divorce courts, why is it that men are so harshly punished by them? A long time friend of my mothers split up with his wife a few years ago now. She wanted EVERYTHING from him, hell she even wanted to get him extradited back to Britain (this was in America), now how is it that that is condoned by the law if women are supposedly 'oppressed' by men? And this isn't the only example of a man's life that was nearly destroyed by divorce. A quick Google search will find you more examples of this.
Back to the crimes thing, rape cases are heavily biased in favour of the woman. If this wasn't true, why is it that a woman raping a man is not viewed as badly as a man raping a woman? And don't forget about all the female child molesters out there, as opposed to the only ones the media ever tell us about, the male ones. Also in cases of statutory rape, how if the female is of age and the male is not, the woman doesn't get punished as harshly as if it was the other way around? I would go on but if we were all truely equal, then you would get punished the same for the same crime, regardless of your gender.
Also I will now do what everyone, regardless of what they say, will do, which is I will ignore everyone with a different viewpoint and only take notice of people that back up my own. You do this too, everyone does.
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Also I will now do what everyone, regardless of what they say, will do, which is I will ignore everyone with a different viewpoint and only take notice of people that back up my own. You do this too, everyone does.
are you relatively new to debating or
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are you relatively new to debating or
No I just like to state the obvious.
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Now for feminism. Oh joy. I despise feminism (especially the militant kind) because they campaign for 'equality' but still want all the benefits being a woman gives them. Like maternity leave, divorce court equality (which is currently biased heavily in favour of the woman), equal punishments for the same crimes and the time honoured 'you can't hit me I'm a girl!' thing. On the subject of divorce courts, why is it that men are so harshly punished by them? A long time friend of my mothers split up with his wife a few years ago now. She wanted EVERYTHING from him, hell she even wanted to get him extradited back to Britain (this was in America), now how is it that that is condoned by the law if women are supposedly 'oppressed' by men? And this isn't the only example of a man's life that was nearly destroyed by divorce. A quick Google search will find you more examples of this.
except for divorce court, please list ten scenarios in which men are oppressed.
i bet u anyone can name five scenarios in which women are oppressed for every one of the scenarios u name.
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Maternity leave is a given though. Because you've carried that thing around for nine months, given birth and then you need to look after it. Babies have a bigger bond with the mother than they do with the father. Hence longer maternity leave for mothers and only 2-3 weeks for paternity leave.
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Damn it, I've got more questions than debating... stuff?
I dunno, we did some stuff in Media that could come into feminism or sexism and stuff.
Like, one of the arguments was about how photography in the media will often edit pictures of women and give them features that aren't natural, hold on, I've got a link to something that shows it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U)
4Chan is pretty bad for discrimination though There's usually no point in mentioning if you're a woman, otherwise you will get harassed and told to leave unless you post pictures of yourself. Then the people who will stand up for you (and some people will) end up just getting harassed with you for trying to "white knight". I would say that it's due to the pack mentality that people develope and the fact that they are all posting as anon.
Did Danny Dyer really say to slash a womans face so nobody would want her? That's pretty messed up, fair play. Then again, Danny Dyer is a prat who always thinks he's the 'ard man but absolutely drops a brick when talking to murderers and drug dealers. Just watch his show about the worlds hardest men and count the times when he complains about how scary things are.
Is this the sort of stuff that's studied in sociology?
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except for divorce court, please list ten scenarios in which men are oppressed.
i bet u anyone can name five scenarios in which women are oppressed for every one of the scenarios u name.
While I know this is a really late reply, your attitude perfectly demonstrates the key problem I see with modern feminism. It's this whining over who is "more oppressed" which spoils any legitimacy the movement once had. While it's claimed that the more radical feminists are looking for total equality, arguments like this are consistently used to marginalise and ignore issues which effect men. In my eye, progress will be made by focusing on both sides of the coin at the same time. The current trend of demonizing masculinity and portraying men as oppressors of women is disturbing in the sense that both sides harm eachother. That said, the "Men's Rights" movement has exactly the same flaw, but the open hostility towards that campaign by many online feminists really doesn't sit well with me. If feminist groups (at least in my experience) are often violently opposed to dealing with men's issues, why do they believe they have a right to complain when men try to make a movement of their own... Both groups just irritate me, nonetheless.
A perfect example of the almost biased image of the gender debate presented by some brands of feminism is the complaint about the 'glass ceiling' - I.E. that women are kept out of top jobs and board rooms, etc. There are many reasons for that (not just male oppression, seriously), but I'd like to point out the complete disregard for what some call the 'glass floor'. That is, while women struggle to get into the highest paying jobs, men are disproportionately found in the absolute lowest paid jobs. To add to that, males also make up an oversized proportion of homeless people, and fall victim to the majority of workplace accidents and deaths. Let's not even mention suicide rates. Why isn't this even talked about? Simply because nobody cares. Men aren't supposed to be 'oppressed' as it goes against the media image that radical feminism seeks, so it's covered over and shouted down with cries of 'misogyny'.
So to sum up briefly, I see a need for a more legitimate gender equality movement which can work towards removing stereotypes and expectations which impact both genders. This will be easiest if we work towards getting it into schools, and by that I don't mean 'gender studies'. I mean teaching kids about how to respect others and how to work towards a fairer system. For example, that means men not being taught to see women as objects, and women not being taught to see all men as potential rapists. One side does not oppress the other, societal gender roles result in inequalities which disadvantage everyone.
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While I know this is a really late reply, your attitude perfectly demonstrates the key problem I see with modern feminism. It's this whining over who is "more oppressed" which spoils any legitimacy the movement once had.
sorry if it came across that way, i mostly get bothered when people say IM NOT A FEMINIST, I HATE FEMINISTS BECAUSE THEY DONT FOCUS ON MENS ISSUES
which leads on to
So to sum up briefly, I see a need for a more legitimate gender equality movement which can work towards removing stereotypes and expectations which impact both genders. This will be easiest if we work towards getting it into schools, and by that I don't mean 'gender studies'. I mean teaching kids about how to respect others and how to work towards a fairer system. For example, that means men not being taught to see women as objects, and women not being taught to see all men as potential rapists. One side does not oppress the other, societal gender roles result in inequalities which disadvantage everyone.
feminism does this,,, lol
feminism is for breaking down that wall that portrays women as weak sex objects, and stops things from being seen as "girly" therefore looked down on by men.
children are taught at a young age that playing with dolls if youre a boy is wrong, playing with cars and superhero stuff is wrong if youre a girl. feminism is trying to take down the idea that any boy playing with dolls isnt a ~pussy~ and any girl playing with superheroes isnt ~unladylike~ and this is where your "children need to respect each other" comes into play. they cant respect everyone if theyre taught constantly that one gender doing something uncharacteristic of their stereotypical gender norm is Wrong and should be made fun of. once feminists prove that boys playing with girls toys is Okay and girls playing with boys toys doesnt make them any less of a woman [or lady!], children will learn to respect those who do those things at a young age instead of making fun of them.
also, women are taught to see men as rapists. men are not taught not to rape, women are taught how not to get raped. men are taught to see women as objects because the media portrays them all as braindead bimbos with tits whose only jobs are to hang off a Strong Male Lead Characters arm as an accessory. feminism is also trying to remove this general "rule" in media. its trying to show that women have feelings and ambitions and potential in any field - yes, even mechanics, even beauty products, they have interests in varying things - so maybe men will stop seeing them as objects. if we get enough strong female characters - maybe not ponies, who, coincidentally, have been monopolised by men who claim feminism doesnt help them because theyre still made fun of for being ~girly~, but thats another story haha - then maybe men will realise, wow, not every woman is mine to rape or use to get my rocks off, they actually have feelings!
oh, and may i add, when men are raped, no man takes them seriously because theyre seen as "weak" for not fighting back. this is another implication that women are weak. men are not taken seriously because theyre raped by the weaker sex. you see where im going with this? feminism removes the idea that women are weak, some women are strong and dangerous, and men who are raped or abused by their girlfriends or wives are not weak. once feminism gets through the idea that woman are just as strong as men, we will see men being taken more seriously when they report these crimes.
feminism will also end slutshaming, which would help in cases such as the stubenville case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case) we all know and love so much. when that girl was raped by high school boys, she was a slut, she didnt look after herself, she lost friends and was bullied for being a slut for being raped, and the men in that case were all sympathised with. oh, theyre so talented, such a shame, such a terrible tragedy, these boys raped a girl and had so much potential, what a shame. feminism also removes the idea that women participating in any sexual activity are any less of a woman, or anything close to a slut. women who are raped by men are demonised, and white males get off with a "oh, he had so much potential!". men are not taught to not rape because theyre sympathised with when they do rape, or even murder.
what you and most people dont ever seem to understand is that feminism is not the movement for women to have rights and men to be thrown in the gutter, its a movement to provoke proper equality by balancing out gender roles. you say you want a movement that would promote proper equality? thats what feminism is.
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the problem is that there are two types of feminists in regards to views on equality.
at least two that i've come across.
type 1: "feminism is a movement which focuses on men and women's rights equally: it directly addresses male issues as well as female ones. a separate movement for men's rights is not needed."
type 2: "feminism is a movement which prioritises focus on women: it directly addresses female issues and/or seeks to dissolve male issues as an eventual result of the former. if male issues are to be discussed in detail, then a separate movement should be made to focus on them."
both are cool: no movement has an obligation to do anything outside of what they set out to do, and both men and women have issues.
(and yeah there's also the type 3 "lol male tears/castrate all men" people who im going to lump aside as some weird tumblr sub-group of whiny teenagers. not cool. very SJWy. makes me sigh because of how bad it makes feminism look.)
so you have the second group of people going "stop complaining that feminism doesn't tackle male rape/disposability/expectations, of course it doesn't because it focuses on women". which is fair enough, yknow, so the MRM is set up.
then you get the first group saying "no, the MRM is unnecessary because feminism focuses on men's issues as well. you don't need the MRM. if you believe in equality then you are a feminist."
so there's going to be some confusion there. particularly given as you have all the waves of feminism with their different different priorities, and you have radfems and libfems and.. ok basically most feminists each have their own definition, and may take any criticism of the movement as a whole as an attack on their own personal/unique beliefs.
and there's a lot of "they're not REAL feminists" going on which everyone says about everyone else who differs.
diversity is great, its just confusing.
oh, and may i add, when men are raped, no man takes them seriously because theyre seen as "weak" for not fighting back. this is another implication that women are weak. men are not taken seriously because theyre raped by the weaker sex. you see where im going with this? feminism removes the idea that women are weak, some women are strong and dangerous, and men who are raped or abused by their girlfriends or wives are not weak. once feminism gets through the idea that woman are just as strong as men, we will see men being taken more seriously when they report these crimes.
ehhhh john im sorry but i have shuffle uncomfortably in my seat because of this.
so what youre saying is "yes, it's awful that men are raped, but that will get sorted out later, once we've sorted out other stuff." which could be further taken as "if you don't support feminism like you were told to, then it's your fault that raped men aren't getting taken seriously".
so instead of campaigning to push laws like making female rape legally recognised in places like the UK-- like it would do if there was an injustice in the law towards women, take direct action-- feminism's idea of sorting this is to let a change happen gradually once it's sorted out the much more pressing problem of women being seen as weak.
if that's feminism's way of doing things, that obviously is great, because societal expectations need to change. but i also don't see the problem in another group, one which is more focused on men, campaigning from the other side to try and break down and attack the laws directly. because its priority is changing the laws which discriminate directly against men.
with the combined efforts of two points of view: "women aren't too weak to overpower men" and "men aren't too strong to be raped", surely societal expectations and stereotypes will be broken down from both sides... they're both working towards the same thing.
maybe im just hopelessly naive lmao.
feminism will also end slutshaming, which would help in cases such as the stubenville case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case) we all know and love so much. when that girl was raped by high school boys, she was a slut, she didnt look after herself, she lost friends and was bullied for being a slut for being raped, and the men in that case were all sympathised with. oh, theyre so talented, such a shame, such a terrible tragedy, these boys raped a girl and had so much potential, what a shame.
cases like this are awful and disgusting. theyre also rare, but very publicised. like tales of kids getting trapped in dumped refrigerators. CNN got a lot of backlash for taking this point of view (and rightly so), amongst both men and women, both feminists and people who aren't feminists. the link you gave on it mentions the negative reaction several times, and has a section about response.
there are other similar cases that i can think of are when the judge makes some comment about how a rape victim was dressed "provocatively". again, disgusting. again, the judge in question got banned from similar cases or lost their job for bias.
also defence lawyers say things like that. because theyre defending the person accused of rape. so theyll do anything they can to get their client off the hook by making out that it was consensual and that the woman just regrets it. theyre liars who say awful things, because thats their job, and they do that for all other crimes. im not saying thats ok, im just saying that its not exclusive to rape.
disclaimer: im not saying "abolish/replace feminism!" nor am i going the whole "feminism is a hate group" way which ive seen some people go down, haha.
im just saying, i dont see why there cant be more than one equality movement which focus on different things.
yay for women's rights. yay for men's rights. boo for victim blaming. boo for gender boxes. yay for everyone being treated fairly and the same regardless of their gender.
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You know, I see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, feminism falls flat on it's face when claiming to be out for proper equality, largely because of the very vocal extremists who seem to be taking over the movement. The lovely person above has already put forward a lot of what I wanted to say (nicely done!), the main point being the two branches of feminism. The vocal minority does tend to drag down the movement.
then maybe men will realise, wow, not every woman is mine to rape or use to get my rocks off, they actually have feelings!
Here it is again - the movement frames this problem as being soley due to men seeing women as 'weak'. I can assure you that the vast majority of men do not think that way, the assholes that do are used to vilify an entire gender. It's the same principal as these 'teach men not to rape' campaigns... it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. In this world there are people who will rape and people who won't, in the same way that there are people who steal and people who won't. Males don't need 'educating' to show them that women aren't objects, rape targets or anything like that. No poster campaign is going to put an end to rape. Or to put it another way - do you need to be reminded not to attack people in public?
It's nice to claim that the movement is working towards both gender's issues, but the reality is that it isn't. Men's issues, as said in the post above, are consistently pushed aside as things to 'fix later' and not discuss, while women's issues are given attention. Fixing injustice which impacts women only isn't going to magically remove issues that effect men, either. Everyone wants equality, but feminism as it stands just isn't doing it. If that were truly the intention, there wouldn't be such a hostile reaction to the existence of the Men's Rights Movement in general - both would be working together, no?
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oh, and may i add, when men are raped, no man takes them seriously because theyre seen as "weak" for not fighting back. this is another implication that women are weak.
This one doesn't sit well with me, I feel like this once again falls into Daedalus's example of arguing over 'Who is more oppressed', I think to say what I've just quoted is like trying to snatch sympathy or something. Men are raped and nobody takes them seriously, but somehow we're supposed to feel sorry for women.
I think it should be mentioned that nobody mentioned men being raped by women, so you actually jumped to conclusions here. There's a reason why men are not taken seriously when they are raped and it has absolutely nothing to do with what gender raped them.
The problem is absolutely masculinity, but what people forget is that masculinity doesn't require women to be a problem. If a man is raped by a man, he will be seen as weak for not fighting back - it's not implying that male rapists are weak, it's implying that the victim is weak. That's what masculinity is all about - not being 'stronger than women' but being stronger than other men. A man raping a woman isn't necessarily at it's core a misogynistically driven action in every instance, it's often just an extreme show of masculinity. Showing other men "Look how manly I am, I don't need to play the dating game to get my sex, I just take it".
And this isn't strictly male-exclusive either. If you look at your average high school bullying, the weak kid will get bullied by the stronger boys. The girls will reject him because he's a weak boy and nobody will hang out with him because they're scared to associate with the weak boy and what that means for their well-being. Then conversely on the female side it's not necessarily about who's physically stronger (This can actually cause bullying on the female side), it's about who's 'attractive' or not. The ugly/awkward/loner girl gets bullied by the pretty girls. The boys reject her because she's ugly/awkward/a loner and nobody will hang out with her because they're scared to associate with the ugly/awkward/loner girl and what that means for their well-being.
You see the pattern emerging? The problem isn't 'WOMEN' or 'MEN', that's just a cover to distract you from the real issue - society as it is currently is 100% messed up, even as kids we play this struggling dog-eat-dog game of 'Who can fit into the socially acceptable mold the most before they get bullied for not doing so'.
Yes, currently it is indeed a man's world, and men do hold all the cards and maintain the glass ceiling, but it's not because they are 'MEN' and being a man somehow gives you a free pass into this world, it's because of history - it's tradition passed down from the hunter gatherer mentality right through from tribes in the jungle to the start of society, into religion and then into government. Men are just there by default, if it was women it would be women doing the same thing - and no that is not misogyny, that's just a fact.
Thankfully, the glass ceiling is being slowly eroded, but this problem will not end when it's gone and women have all the equal rights in the world because it's a problem with society. It forces us to be things we aren't naturally, everytime someone gives birth to a child that child is being raised and the only way people know how to raise their children is to look at the templates of society - give him a blue room because he's a boy and that's what boys do. Give her a dress because she's a girl and that's what girls wear. These people don't even think about it, they just follow like sheep.
And there is no real guiding hand in charge of 'society', it's all of us. Magazines and media don't dictate society, we do - they aren't trying to instill old fashioned methods of manliness onto us, they are just trying to sell their products - they say women should wear delicate perfumes that smell like flowers while men should wear 'manly' aftershave because that's what people want to hear, those are values they picked up from us to ensure their Chanel No. 5 would sell to the largest demographic. If society did a sudden 180 overnight and said that men should be wearing delicate perfumes then 'the media' would change in a heartbeat, they're not gonna try and debate it with society, we are their paying customers and if they don't like it, they will sink because you can bet that some other company will be re-branding women's goods as 'for men' because they know it'll make them good money and put them on top of the pile.
I ran on a little bit here, but hopefully you get the idea. People's minds need to be opened about this and start seeing the bigger picture of what really causes these problems instead of rooting for 'WOMEN' or 'MEN' like they're some kind of rival sports teams. Nobody is ever going to see eye-to-eye like that.
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The problem is absolutely masculinity, but what people forget is that masculinity doesn't require women to be a problem. If a man is raped by a man, he will be seen as weak for not fighting back - it's not implying that male rapists are weak, it's implying that the victim is weak. That's what masculinity is all about - not being 'stronger than women' but being stronger than other men. A man raping a woman isn't necessarily at it's core a misogynistically driven action in every instance, it's often just an extreme show of masculinity. Showing other men "Look how manly I am, I don't need to play the dating game to get my sex, I just take it".
You raise a very interesting point here. I've never been one of the 'manly manly men' in that sense, and in school that was a big social disadvantage. It's a good thing that feminism encourages these traditional gender roles to be thrown aside, with women encouraged to be 'strong' and independent. However, there seems to be a lot of concern with demonizing masculinity but very little effort in providing a different model. If people want to remove that identity there needs to be a valid alternative.
Yes, currently it is indeed a man's world, and men do hold all the cards and maintain the glass ceiling, but it's not because they are 'MEN' and being a man somehow gives you a free pass into this world, it's because of history - it's tradition passed down from the hunter gatherer mentality right through from tribes in the jungle to the start of society, into religion and then into government. Men are just there by default, if it was women it would be women doing the same thing - and no that is not misogyny, that's just a fact.
You know, I'd actually dispute that we even live in a "man's world". It's true that most 'top jobs' are held by men, but that still leaves the vast majority of men as well as women beneath them. We have an elite that are almost exclusively men from very wealthy families, which often runs down through several generations via inheritance. Perhaps it's worth considering that, rather than men in general excluding women from this group, this preexisting elite are responsible. In other words, the people at the 'top' of our society prefer to keep everyone else below them, regardless of gender. It's a total myth that all men have equal opportunities, let alone women. (Not really related to feminism, just an interesting observation).