Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 9871 times)

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Offline Sebastian Moran

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Abortion
« on: October 13, 2011, 20:05 »
Oh, one of those subjects. 
Titling the topic this to try to avoid bias: for example "pro-life" and "anti-choice" being different words for the same side 
 
Basically continuing this without it clogging up the RR topic. 
I mean I was comparing the ridiculousness of one thing with the ridiculousness [as I see it] of Mississippi's Amendment 26, but hey, I'm in that sort of mood. 
Ho hum. 
 
Even if it's a reply for the sake of argument/hey look at these other viewpoints, I'm posting it here so that I can get hysterical in a more appropriate forum. 
 
I'm only teasing of course, but the debate between 'What constitutes a human?' in terms of abortion has been going on for a rather long time, and both sides have legitimate claims. While an unfertilized egg still needs a male set of chromosomes to begin the process of becoming a baby, The fertilized egg already possess everything it needs to begin transforming itself from a single cell into a full human child...So, do you support the woman's right to abort and 'kill' the cell as it's just beginning it's transformation into humanity, or do you support the cells right, and allow it to live and fully mature into a newborn, even though the mother doesn't want it?

Basically, I just wanted to say, that it all depends on your point of view, and which you consider more important, the woman, or the child, in terms of abortion. Your claim that you wouldn't be surprised that we'd ban a genre of music because some Americans favor protecting the unborn, still developing child over the rights of the mother to terminate her pregnancy seems a bit too...How do you say...Controversial to be compared.

I'm just saying that a fertilised egg has no mind. If it were aborted it wouldn't know. If I had been aborted I wouldn't know. If my mother had aborted me she could have gone to university and become a lawyer like she wanted to, instead of giving up her life taking care of me. 
Now, I'm not saying "god, I wish she had!": I'm glad to be here, and I think that she's glad to have me here now that I am. 
 
I'm just saying that everyone should have the choice. 
Saying "no, you absolutely cannot abort that egg!" [also potentially making things like the morning-after pill illegal because they prevent a fertilised egg from implanting in the womb tissue and growing into a baby, if the anti-choice sites are to be believed].. 
...saying that, if a woman chooses to have sex and for whatever reason gets pregnant, or if the sex is of dubious or no consent... if regardless of her circumstances, age, financial income, plans for life or phobias she has to go through with a pregnancy and birth, that is treating those women as nothing more than incubators, and to be honest that horrifies me. 
 
I know that it depends on the point of view, but once you get the law to back up your beliefs, that is forcing other people to live by your own beliefs, whether or not you hold them. The law does have to draw a line, true, but it shouldn't be based more on the emotion of one side than anything else. 
A woman who can't afford to have a baby, or who is terrified of pregnancy, or who is just about to go to university... if they abort, it won't effect the lives of people who are perfectly happy with their lives, and would be happy to support any accidental children. 
 
If abortion is legal it doesn't force everyone to have an abortion, so it makes no sense to force everyone not to. 
 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 20:13 by Mr. Dalliard »



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Re: Abortion
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2011, 22:48 »
Damn Mark, you're too easy to agree with...

Did have an interesting discussion about this the other day, the main question being "when does a foetus obtain rights of it's own?". Although that's more of a 'how late should it legally be allowed to be performed' debate.

I'd still stick with the stance that abortion is a very personal choice. Of course, abortion isn't particularly a good thing, but a woman has every right to choose whether to do so in my opinion.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2011, 00:20 »
yeah mark sums it up quite well

abortion is ok
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Offline Clairefable

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2011, 04:18 »
Abortions for some, and miniature American flags for others!

Mark pretty much summed up how I feel; I don't see myself as being pro-abortion; I am (vehemently) pro-choice. Thankfully it's something I've never had to deal with and I don't think it's a decision that anyone would ever take lightly but I am grateful that it's there should I decide that it's something that I would need in the future.



and that's all I'll say on the matter because there are few topics more likely to get me permab& than abotion

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2011, 05:00 »
I'm just saying that everyone should have the choice. 

The problem basically becomes, that you're making the choice to end a life, and on what authority do you have to make such a huge decision? As mentioned, the fertilized egg, while having no mind of it's own, is considered by some to be human, because if left inside the womb, it will eventually transform into a human baby. An unfertilized cell, if left in the womb, will not transform into a human baby, and therefore, isn't considered human. And since a fertilized cell is considered a human, it deserves the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, at least in the United States of America.

So, what gives the mother the right to take away another human's basic rights? Simply because she is the mother, and the organism hasn't gotten developed enough to make it's own choices? It becomes a question of 'Does the mother have the right to end a child's life, just because that child can't confirm or object?'

---

You could also pose the question 'Does the mother have the right to end a child's life, just because that child and isn't a recognizable human yet?'

Now, if you don't consider the fertilized egg a human, then there's room for debate. But then you have to ask 'When does the egg become a human?' When it looks like a human baby? When it's born?

---

So, yeah. Personally, I don't know my opinion on the subject. I want to respect the woman's rights to choice and live her own life the way she wants, but at the same time, I don't want to snuff out a new life that has just barely managed to begun. I do accept the fact that once an egg has been fertilized, it should be considered a human. As a result, Planned or not, that new organism has begun life the moment the sperm fertilizes the egg, and if born in the US, that guarantees it the right to Life. It's basically a Catch 22 of whose rights overrule the other's, the Woman or the Child? No matter what choice you make, someone is gonna lose, so you really can't win.

So, yeah! I'm just sort of playing the devil's advocate really... Although my main point in the original post was that abortion is a much more complex topic than you initially demonstrated, and I didn't feel it was a good comparison to something as silly as discriminating against a particular genre of music due to one teen's death at a rave. Didn't mean to inspire a whole topic on it, sorry ^^;


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Re: Abortion
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2011, 06:21 »
The problem basically becomes, that you're making the choice to end a life, and on what authority do you have to make such a huge decision?
A choice that everyone views on a subjective ground.  That is the reason why it should be legalized; those who are opposed to abortions should not get them and those that are contemplating getting one shouldn't abstain from doing so if they believe that a living organism, while it has the ability to blossom into a full grown human being, is also a parasite in its current state.

Besides, in getting the abortion they could prevent the child from growing up in a bad environment.  That way the couple can settle down later and have other children in their lives- canceling out the loss of a life, essentially, because I doubt they'd have the means to have more than a child or even a couple children (if they're lucky) after the first one.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2011, 07:58 »
Was studying this in school, what I found disturbing about abortion is the surgical techniques used, there is a video 'the silent scream' and it is a surgical abortion through an ultrasound scan.
This swayed me against abortion due to the fact that the baby or 'foetus' seemed to be screaming and in pain. It was horrific to watch.
On the other hand, medical abortions are not as stressful on the mother and it is likely to be less stressful to the unborn child.

I do not think this makes abortion 'right' as such. I truly think it is an issue that some women don't think through.
I also feel it should be determined by circumstances, such as rape.
I do not think age is a contributing factor as if you get pregnant at 15 16 17 or whatever and you didn't want a child (well I don't need to move into the biology of it all)

My biggest thought on abortion is one that alot of woman disagree with, I feel that both the mother and father should have a say in wether the abortion should take place.
Yes the mother should get the final say in the matter as it is her body but by law the father has no say in the future of his unborn child.
Is it not his baby to?
Should he not have the right in the important decision of what is to happen his child? 
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2011, 08:39 »
I agree with abortion but i think the limit of when abortions are allowed to take to place should be lowered.
The current limit in the uk is 24 weeks and in some rare cases babies have been born as early as 21 weeks and have survived. If i was born a week earlier than what i was, i would've been classed as an abortion.
Some women may not get the more detailed scan at around 18 - 22 weeks until 22 weeks, which leaves only two weeks to decide - if the baby will be born with a genetic or an illness that reduces quality of life - if they should keep it or not.
The limit of viability in the uk - when babies are considered to have a chance at survival (however slim) - is 23 weeks. If babies can survive then, then why are they being aborted at such a late stage?
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Offline Clairefable

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2011, 12:03 »
Should he not have the right in the important decision of what is to happen his child?

Until men can go though pregnancy/labour, be expected to give up work/uni/college/school, or be expected to be the child's primary carer 24/7, then I don't really see why other than as a matter of courtesy. What's to stop the father begging and pleading with the mother to change her mind, only to decide that they don't want a baby after all and take off, leaving the mother with a child they never wanted in the first place? Sorry gents, but it is how it is. I think it'd be a pretty dick move NOT to tell the guy involved, but I don't think there's an obligation to do so.

What would be implications if abortion were to be outlawed again? Would anyone really want to see the return of DIY abortions? Think of all the girls/women that would end put putting themselves in hospital or killing themselves trying to make themselves miscarry, as happened in the past. Perhaps this sounds rather clinical, and maybe it is, but I don't ever think the foetus (I refuse to use emotive words like "baby" or "child"; let's call it what it is people) should take priority over the life of the mother.



oh man I was staying away from this topic wasn't I
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 12:06 by clairefable »

Offline Ledyba

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2011, 13:13 »
a woman has the right to do with her body in the base line. this is both aborting and keeping a baby, remember its possible to pressure a woman to have abortion he doesn't  want.

so yeh i'm classic pro-choice

although depending on the cirumtances i do think the partner in the relationship does deserve at least knowledge and a chance to talk this over and perhaps come to another soulation that they are both happy with.  i don't think anything like it should be legistaized because I have said its all about circumstance, i do however believe the father should have some input, it is a mother's baby and all, but at the same time it's still the fathers, but ultimately and rightly the mother should have the final say - in both keeping and aborting.

i think however this issue is far more important than we can consider it for, it goes beyond the realms of a traffic cone.

just a important question to anti-abortion - would your position change if there was a catapult  involved in anyway?

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2011, 19:21 »
I believe there are other choices but hey, who am I to tell people what to do. It isn't my place to do so.
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Offline Sebastian Moran

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2011, 23:39 »
The problem basically becomes, that you're making the choice to end a life, and on what authority do you have to make such a huge decision?

I don't have any authority to make such a decision. I am not pregnant, and I never will be pregnant. 
It's the woman's choice, not mine. It's a huge decision for her: pregnancy is not just something that you can trundle through and then at the end of it give the baby away. It's body-altering, life-altering, painful and distressing, all the more so if you cannot keep the baby at the end of it. 

Also I find it amusing that Mississippi is one of the states which allows capital punishment, iirc. 
 
As mentioned, the fertilized egg, while having no mind of it's own, is considered by some to be human, because if left inside the womb, it will eventually transform into a human baby. An unfertilized cell, if left in the womb, will not transform into a human baby, and therefore, isn't considered human. And since a fertilized cell is considered a human, it deserves the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, at least in the United States of America.

The key tense here is the future tense: a fertilised egg, embryo or foetus cannot survive outside of the womb until... I think that the line hovers around 20 weeks, but even then the chances are survival are low and specialist hospital equipment is required. 
It has the potential to grow into a human being, yes. I'm not denying that. But as I stated above, pregnancy is not a walk in the park. Raising a child is not something that someone should do just because "whoops the condom broke and I suppose this is my fault for having sex!" 
 
I don't for a minute think that abortion is the easy thing for someone to do, either. There are many reasons to abort: as a young or perhaps underage woman who may encounter problems and discrimination if pregnant [not to mention being unable to support a baby], or a woman in an abusive relationship who doesn't want to bring a child into it, or a woman with a family history of genetic disease, or a woman who has a terrible phobia of pregnancy, a transman for whom being pregnant would go against everything that he identifies as, a woman who can't afford children, a woman who wants to do more things with her life, a woman who was drunk or raped or the contraceptives didn't work and normally she is so careful, or a woman who just does not want children at all, ever. 
 
Obviously there will be other reasons, and there may even be people who get abortions for giggles: you know, don't bother with contraception, get pregnant, maybe wait several months, waltz in for an abortion and then go through the whole thing again because hey, why not? 
But I don't think for a minute that that is the majority. I think that if you have an abortion, there is a damn good reason behind it. You don't just go "whoops, what am I like? Off to the clinic!" It would be something to think about and weigh up. There may be guilt. There will certainly be anti-abortion protesters and media [perhaps even outside clinics, as though it wasn't traumatic enough for those who have to make a choice like this]. 
 
The point being that the law doesn't have to make these decisions: anyone undergoing abortion will already be making them. 
 
And of course there's the fact that making abortion illegal won't stop it from happening if somebody is desperate: it'll just get rid of the safe, hygienic abortions done in clinics. 
 
Finally, giving children up for adoption: there's no shortage of unwanted children in the care system, without families. So the baby is born. Congratulations! Off it goes for adoption, and possibly from foster family to home to foster family until it's 18. There's no funding for unwanted children from the anti-choice protesters that I'm aware of: certainly not enough to support all of them. Once the baby is born, that's their job done. Who cares what happens to it now? 
 
I also feel it should be determined by circumstances, such as rape.

This is something that I can't understand or agree with. 
 
Firstly: if you hold the iron-cast view that a foetus is a foetus is a foetus, then surely it doesn't matter whether it was conceived in rape or consensual sex. It still has the potential to grow and become a human child. If you're going to say "all foetuses are innocent and deserve to live", it seems a little unfair to allow the pregnancies which are due to rape to be terminated. I mean, the foetus itself didn't have any input into the rape, right? 
 
Secondly: This, again, supports the women-as-incubators idea. If a woman wants to have sex and gets pregnant through that, well, clearly that's her fault, regardless of whether she used contraception. However, if she was raped, then she is an innocent bystander and so it's not fair on her. To me, it smacks of the idea that if a woman wants to have or even enjoys sex, then she deserves to live with any consequences.
 
Finally: how do you prove rape? Many go unreported because the victim is afraid: afraid of their attacker, of being judged, of being told that they're crying rape simply because they changed their mind. [Besides, if that's one of the only ways to get an abortion, and a woman wants abortion, what's to stop them from claiming it was due to rape?]. 
Where are the lines for rape drawn? Does it have to be a modestly-dressed, sober woman with a chastity ring walking unattended down an alleyway at night who is jumped by a man who then proceeds to rape her? 
 
There's still the notion hanging around that if a woman is dressed in a short skirt, or is drunk, or goes back to a man's flat at 3am... if she's raped then, then it's her fault and she should have been more careful. 
Which is sort of interesting when you consider that the rapist was the one who actually broke the law. 
 
But rape culture is a whole other subject. 
 
Was studying this in school, what I found disturbing about abortion is the surgical techniques used, there is a video 'the silent scream' and it is a surgical abortion through an ultrasound scan.
This swayed me against abortion due to the fact that the baby or 'foetus' seemed to be screaming and in pain. It was horrific to watch.
On the other hand, medical abortions are not as stressful on the mother and it is likely to be less stressful to the unborn child.

I'm somewhat certain that doctors do not compete to find the most horrific abortion techniques available: if they do something, there is a reason behind it. 
Early pregnancies can be terminated by inducing a miscarriage, as far as I'm aware. Later pregnancies involve other procedures. 
If an abortion is being left until quite late, there is probably a reason for it other than sudden cold feet, such as a defect discovered in the foetus, that would do the mother harm to have it left in. 

Intact dilation and evacuation [aka partial-birth abortion] is an abortion procedure in which late-term foetuses were able to be born whole: the mother could see her children, name them, hold them, before they were buried. It involved a vacuum removing the brain of the foetus so that the head can be compressed and the body delivered. 
It's now illegal in the US due to anti-abortion protesting. I think that the only option available for that late in the pregnancy are a type of caesarian. I don't know how they kill the foetus in that method. 
However, other procedures such as dilation and curettage [essentially scraping out the contents of the womb], are still legal, although this is in decline and tends to be used for earlier stages of pregnancy.

Aaand I do completely agree with it being the mother's choice. If the pair are in a relationship, then surely they can discuss it together and respect the other's wishes, but ultimately it is the woman's body. And if they are not in a relationship and the father is protesting, then there is no obligation for him to hang around and have to raise a child and he should have put something on the end of it 
 
I think this is long enough for me to post now 
 
oh no wait 
 
So, yeah! I'm just sort of playing the devil's advocate really... Although my main point in the original post was that abortion is a much more complex topic than you initially demonstrated, and I didn't feel it was a good comparison to something as silly as discriminating against a particular genre of music due to one teen's death at a rave. Didn't mean to inspire a whole topic on it, sorry ^^;
 
well, that's the point of debate, surely? :v 
I wasn't meaning that it was on the same level of seriousness as such, just that it smacked of the "this could in some situations be bad, ban it, ban it all!" mindset that I was getting from Amendment 26: without looking at all examples of the situation they want to ban, as it were.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 13:10 by Mr. Dalliard »



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Re: Abortion
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2011, 23:54 »
The foetus may have the potential to grow - but is it actually alive? Can one consider it a human being in development, or a cluster of cells just waiting to be formed into something? I'm pro ably wrong here, but I think of it like this:
When you plant a seed, is it considered a plant? While it's still growing underground, is it considered a plant? When it first appears above ground, is it considered a plant?
I apply the philosophy to this topic. At what point is it considered "human," and deserving of rights? At what point does it become "killing," rather than "stopping?" I don't have all the facts, and I'm too tired at this point in time to look them up. But in the end, it's the mother's choice, unless there is a compelling reason to disregard her decision. If, for whatever reason, she doesn't want or can't handle a child, she needs to be able to make the decision on what she wants to do - not what the crowd wants her to do.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2011, 04:26 »
Also, some arguments saying "Shouldn't have had sex" or "should have used contraception" blow because it essentially seems to act as more of a punishment towards woman for having sex more than protecting a fetus.
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Re: Abortion
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 14:24 »
Personally I don't see much wrong with it. I often hear an argument that that so many brilliant, clever people could be born if there were no abortions, we could be killing a scientist or an actor. Mmm... but we could also be killing a murderer. Sex is a very natural thing that had a ton of benefits; Weight loss, easing stress and depression, pain relief and other things, so saying "Just don't have sex!" isn't exactly being helpful, it may be the most sure way of not getting pregnant but it's in peoples nature to do it. You can't stop people having sex.If a woman becomes pregnant then it should be her choice whether she wants to keep it or not, If she doesn't want a child there is a stronger possibility that it isn't going to be looked after right, it could be living and suffering with a horrible life of a crowded home, poverty and even abuse if born to someone who doesn't care about it.

People who try and stop women from getting abortions, who try and close down clinics, stand in the doors and berate the people getting them, will they try and support the baby they have saved? Would they be willing to take on this new baby that the mother clearly didn't want/isn't ready for? I bet most of them wouldn't. I don't blame anyone for getting an abortion, it's not an easy decision for anyone to make.