Topic: Feminism, Fedoras and SJWs on tumblr - Where Do You Stand?

[quack98]

I don't think you've ever been to the US but I don't think that number is anywhere close to 100% let alone 70%.  Or maybe it is.  There's a lot that goes into it, and someone can say "I support equal rights" then go through a questionnaire that directly contradicts his stated view.

I have been to the U.S. several times (10 times I think, 6 to Florida and 4 touring the west coast), but I wouldn't judge a country on a few visits. I know the figure wouldn't be 100%, I do think, however, that most men do want woman equal, although they may upset them unintentionally, for example when drunk, or even just not thinking they'd take much offence.

about feminism tho?

How would I know they were feminists if I hadn't? So to answer your question; yes.

[Lord Raven]

I have been to the U.S. several times (10 times I think, 6 to Florida and 4 touring the west coast), but I wouldn't judge a country on a few visits. I know the figure wouldn't be 100%, I do think, however, that most men do want woman equal, although they may upset them unintentionally, for example when drunk, or even just not thinking they'd take much offence.

You're pretty close minded if you legitimately believe it's 100%.  Is it because they seem like nice people or what?  You missed my point entirely btw, people can say they like equality but if you ask them certain questions that are relevant to this debate then they may not agree.  Just because people can say they're all for it doesn't necessarily mean that when the vote comes down they will pick the side that favors it.

How would I know they were feminists if I hadn't? So to answer your question; yes.

I get the feeling that you're just making smartass remarks to my questions because I kept them so vague

Have you ever had a good, long conversation about feminism with them?  What did they say to you specifically?  What did you learn about the other side?

[quack98]

You're pretty close minded if you legitimately believe it's 100%. Is it because they seem like nice people or what? 
I said that I know the figure isnt 100%

You missed my point entirely btw, people can say they like equality but if you ask them certain questions that are relevant to this debate then they may not agree. 

Its the same with everything though; you may agree with something but their may be one aspect you don't agree with. This doesn't mean you're against it. I know many men wouldn't agree on some parts (specifically, as Sylar said, using 'little girl' as an insult, but is this any worse to woman calling men dickheads?)

Just because people can say they're all for it doesn't necessarily mean that when the vote comes down they will pick the side that favors it.

This is true. But I suppose the only way to tell is for the government to do a referendum, which they likely won't because they have more pressing matters (from their point of view).

I get the feeling that you're just making smartass remarks to my questions because I kept them so vague
Have you ever had a good, long conversation about feminism with them?  What did they say to you specifically?  What did you learn about the other side?
Reasonably long, yes. They mainly said that problems stem from Media and that the current issues feminists are dealing with are mainly the negative image of, as Sylar put it, 'just a pair of tits and a vagina'.

Again, comments in bold.

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

i swore i wouldn't get involved in this but oh well



for the record my opinion on tumblr's overtly sjw ironic intersectionality stuff and reddit's "no we're not mysogynistic honest" mra-ism is that both sides are nerds who don't get out at all  and have weird ideas about the world but that goes w/o saying

I get the feeling that you're just making smartass remarks to my questions because I kept them so vague
Have you ever had a good, long conversation about feminism with them?  What did they say to you specifically?  What did you learn about the other side?
Reasonably long, yes. They mainly said that problems stem from Media and that the current issues feminists are dealing with are mainly the negative image of, as Sylar put it, 'just a pair of tits and a vagina'.

i hope they made the important distinction that third-wave feminism =/= post-feminism and if you told them "no but they don't have any thing to campaign for really" they told you why that was wrong and why it was especially rich of you to say that

[Sebastian Moran]

im curious as to what feminism is doing to address the issues of body image and media representation. 
this isnt a sarcastic question btw, im genuinely asking here. with people who are involved with feminism and hopefully less likely to be sj warrior about it haha. 
   
campaigning to change laws-- solid things in writing-- is one thing (and has in the past been effective yes), but how would a group of people go about trying to change social perceptions? 
or "smash the patriarchy" as i see being repeated a lot. 
 

[.~:Sly Foxx:~.]

I know I'm quite interested in feminism, and a lot of the ways I try to change perspectives is by attitudes.

For starters, I think that one problem we have is how men are afraid to look 'feminine' even though for many women being 'masculine' is considered a normal personality trait. So while I don't go 'OH MY GOD YOU GUYS SHOULD TOTALLY DO THIS THIS AND THIS', a lot of it is me chipping in 'Nothing wrong with that!' when these kind of things come up, and trying not to make a big deal over things that other people might pull faces at. So for example if I hear about a guy crying over something or liking pink, I don't bat an eyelid unless other people are, in which case I comment how it's no big deal. One of the big things I DO try to push a little is that I think it's cool for guys to wear skirts... Hey, if girls can wear trousers.

I also keep the conversation alive about body image. This is especially important to me because I am naturally, genuinely, /bone/ skinny. Like, to the point where people wonder if I'm anorexic. And it really worries me when people say things like 'You're so lucky' because you know, my body shape isn't any healthier than being naturally overweight, and to aspire to be as skinny as this seems really worrying to me... I'm actually trying to put on weight if anything, which is surprisingly difficult, and I'm someone who LOVES food (see my obsessings about deep fried pizza). So, I avoid any and all fat shaming wherever I can, and whenever someone uses the words 'thin' and 'pretty' as something interchangeable, I usually step up to challenge it.

Finally, although my writing tends to stay between me and my friends, I do still try and make sure my characters are proportionately representative. Some of them are insecure females. Some of them are girly-but-self-asserted females. Some of them are very tomboyish females. (And then this of course goes vice versa - I have my share of 'tough guys' and 'sensitive guys'.) If nothing else I think this also helps me to evaluate my own views on the topic, but again, a lot of it is about the little things.

In the end of the day, though while the big legal changes and discussions are important, I think where we're going to see the real changes is through generally rethinking our opinions in day-to-day life. Which doesn't mean leaping up to challenge someone at their every comment (though you do have to do that occasionally) but instead focusing most on how you can set an example with your own attitude. But then, that's just me - I don't speak for every feminist.

(I also get engaged into a lot of debates around the topic, but debates are less about changing other people's minds, and more for learning about all the sides of the story, and forming your own opinion for yourself)

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

im curious as to what feminism is doing to address the issues of body image and media representation. 
this isnt a sarcastic question btw, im genuinely asking here. with people who are involved with feminism and hopefully less likely to be sj warrior about it haha. 
   
campaigning to change laws-- solid things in writing-- is one thing (and has in the past been effective yes), but how would a group of people go about trying to change social perceptions? 
or "smash the patriarchy" as i see being repeated a lot. 
 

i wrote a massive reply and then my computer died lmao

important lesson kids verbosity is a gamble w/ sods law





but yeah modern day feminism is partly about disestablishing the whole "ideal lady" thing in the media and within people in general atm tbh like thats a strong core concept which a lot of people dont get if they haven't had to be under pressure to be pretty ladies and just got away with duderoles of "make up and moisturiser and toner??? hah!! what are you, gay???" and so on

like this is all in the big balloon of """"patriachy"""" that feminism is attempting to take down cos it harms not only ladies but dudes as well in the end


like thats what a lot of the riot grrl (read up on it!! aaaaaaaa) ---> modern day DIY all-inclusive scenes brought about is the spirit for people to stop worrying about what is and isn't ladylike and just do it and sod everyone else or what they think

i know the spice girls happened and implemented a terribly mass-marketed version of this but lets face it that was a record exec's cringeworthy idea as That Joke In Spaced demonstrates



like women have been facing aggro about not looking Perfect (i.e. the Mary Beard (the classicist not the suffragist) drama thats been happening) so this isn't anything new but its only recently that people have been seen more kind of combatting body image issues etc.
well i say recently but people on tumblr treat it as if its this magical new thing so

its kind of a huge thing that only pushing for general change and time and urging people to be sensible and reasonable and not trying to boss other peoples looks around (i.e. getting out more and not being a People Skills moron about it all) are gonna grant b/c you see people trying

but you also see the numbers of people who still make idiot comments like "gb2kitchen" and so forth and then they sit there and wonder why they're single



this isn't my best Feminist Literature but its good enough i hope

[Sebastian Moran]

so done by things like women just doing whatever they want and gradually making people accepting it, rather than Some Big Protest haha, aight i was assuming something like that. 
 
personally i dont believe in the whole patriarchy deal... i believe that society pushes gender roles on both men and women yes... but the term "patriarchy" implies that... idk all the men sat in a circle and thought up ways to Oppress the women, which is silly. or implies that men have all the advantages and aren't disadvantaged due to society, where women are of lesser value and don't perpetrate gender roles at all. 
but hey whether or not i agree with it, there still are gender enforced roles (ive seen the term gender-kyriarchy used but that seems a bit too SJW for me haha). 
 
some feminists say that because of the "smashing the patriarchy" (i.e. trying to wash out the media image of the ideal lady, women taking more STEM careers etc), men are also being helped and so don't need a movement of their own. 
which is kind of dumb because... feminism focuses on women, the name kind of implies that. 
as does the fact that feminism has done numerous things to specifically help women, and nothing of the same for men, which is... not very equal haha. 
its good to have a movement focusing on womens rights, i get baffled when you get people who say "the MRM doesnt need to exist!! feminism is helping men too!" (usually the same kind of people who then go "bringing up male rape victims in this discussion of rape is DERAILING" lmao). 
 
ok that didnt really have anything to do with anything, i forgot what i was talking about. 
oh yeah, gender roles. 
feminism did a lot to help women escape their gender boxes... as did the development of human industry and technology and stuff. instead of only having the choice of physical labour (where men overall would have a physical advantage due to testosterone and body build etc), women are just as able to do intellectual work as men. so when those kinds of avenues opened up there was more appeal to work for women (and then giving people a kick up the arse to let women work helped as well haha). 
 
so for things like clothes... women used to not wear trousers because it was deemed weird and not feminine. 
p sure queen victoria didnt like the idea, remember reading something about that haha. but women got more FREEDOM and now can wear trousers or suits or overalls or idk whatever they want to wear. 
girls (socially acceptably) can play with lego or meccano or toy cars or science kits or be obsessed with dinosaurs or space or whatever. being a tomboy isnt that worrying in most western cultures. some people are going to be backwards about it or will insist that girls should do ~girly~ things (and theres def an infuriating divide between "for girls" and "for boys" marketed things)... but yeah, reverse the genders and its seen as really weirded up for boys to be in the bright-pink "girls" section of the toy store, or to play with dolls or wear pink or like glitter or play with toy cookers. 
men are expected to be masculine as much (if not more? see below paragraph) as women are expected to be feminine... its a double-edged sword. 
 
men and women are expected to stay in their gender boxes. but women have, thanks to feminism (wooo!) been able to do things like wear trousers and have careers and join the army and, in the Western world, have no laws denied to them which are allowed to men. 
which makes it a bit silly when people say "men not being allowed to wear women's clothes is MISOGYNY"... no, its not misogyny any more than women historically not being allowed to wear trousers is misandry... its gender roles. 
 
which yknow, society's gender roles. 
 
obviously id be talking out of my arse saying "lol women have it easy"... the mary beard thing i remember yes, as well as the scrutiny that female celebrities face regarding looks (in magazines aimed towards females?? wtf) and the way that appearances are treated. theres no denying that in terms of appearance, men can get away with looking more ~weathered~ and worn than women can by the end of the day. 
 
i guess that men are more judged on social status, income and career rather than ~body shape~ even though there are expectations and ideologies about that in the media etc etc. 
 
yup there are still some (luckily older) people who are Set In The Old Ways. hopefully though, keep this up and the old ways will die out as more and more people accept that ~gasp~ women are also people?? weird. 
kind of like tattoos and piercings, fewer and fewer people are bothered by them, even though some places dont like employees to have them, its much better than it used to be because its something thats more common, and society is forced to shape itself around it. 
 
tl;dr i agree with the "AHHH WHO CARES JUST DO IIIITTT" tone of voice before executives for nike arrest me for copyright infringement. 
 
 
ALTHOUGH (again, hello) one field in which i think women are definitely, definitely disadvantaged is in (stand-up, particularly) comedy... theyre judged much faster on stage and treated as some kind of separate category of comedian blurrghh. 
 

[.~:Sly Foxx:~.]

Interesting further note you might find about gender roles: Just because women are 'allowed' to wear trousers doesn't mean it's actually as acceptable as you might think. I'm someone who refuses to wear skirts/dresses, and no lie, people mocked me behind my back when I chose to wear trousers to school. I also got into three separate arguments with different people over the fact that I chose *gasp* not to wear a dress to prom (I was still dressed smart, just in trousers rather than a dress). People just get uncomfortable when I'm not girl enough for their liking, for some reason.

People make a really big deal about people fitting into their assigned 'gender boxes'. I do think something that would help everyone would be to make people think of gender as a 'spectrum' rather than a 'one or the other' - killing a few birds with one stone, really, as it might take some of the drama out of 'fitting into your box' which helps guys, girls and anyone in between. But then I don't know how effective that would be.

[Sebastian Moran]

aye, i wont deny that kids are evil when it comes to judging other people for how they dress. which sounds like im belitting it gdi, schools and things are the worst for "lol youre doing things differently"... so yeah that they may not react well to a boy wearing a dress either. 
like eddie izzard talking about how he was attacked by some people while wearing a dress, and their defence was that he started it, because he obviously was wearing his FIGHTING DRESS. and yknow, parents flipping out over their son being ~wrong~ and stuff like that, thats a common theme. there will be parents who worry over their girl being a tomboy, but i cant imagine any parents doing the latter but not the former. 
 
man i sound like im doing the oppression olympics thing blrurgrklryyrggg im not trying to, honest, im just saying... it does go both ways >: 
BUT yes youre not saying "and this shows that women arent taken seriously!", which is the silly thing that i guess im arguing against... even though nobody here is saying it. im kind of dumb (drunk). 
 
the gender spectrum is a fun idea, a la "just do what you want wooooo!", but then you get down into the void of SJW gender identity which is a terrifying place. 
but they ruin everything. 
 

[Milsap]

And many woman view men in a similar way

That Diet Coke advert with the man in the lift/window cleaner. And more recently, the Malteasers advert with the women at the man stripper show.

There would be outrage if there was a 'ladvert' doing it the other way round.

[Webby]

That Diet Coke advert with the man in the lift/window cleaner. And more recently, the Malteasers advert with the women at the man stripper show.

There would be outrage if there was a 'ladvert' doing it the other way round.

"Ladverts" are a little different... showing off that certain things make you a man, and that other things make you less of a man (or not a man at all). Like Yorkie, "Man Fuel For Man Stuff", or the McCoys adverts where suggesting that you ask for directions makes you less of a man and less deserving of something as silly as a packet of crisps. I feel way more uncomfortable about these kinds of adverts than those that objectify men. I don't feel like more of a man for taking my shopping bags home on my own. I don't feel like less of a man for daring to ask for directions. It doesn't remotely bother me that women would objectify men in adverts because that's people do in real life. It's how a lot of people choose their partners. For me it's just one of those things (besides, I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this planet has treated some man or woman like an object). I think this would be the same the other way around; I think it would be more damaging to infer that certain things make someone more or less of a woman than to objectify women in a 30 second video clip.

[Turner]

"Ladverts" are a little different... showing off that certain things make you a man, and that other things make you less of a man (or not a man at all). Like Yorkie, "Man Fuel For Man Stuff", or the McCoys adverts where suggesting that you ask for directions makes you less of a man and less deserving of something as silly as a packet of crisps. I feel way more uncomfortable about these kinds of adverts than those that objectify men. I don't feel like more of a man for taking my shopping bags home on my own. I don't feel like less of a man for daring to ask for directions. It doesn't remotely bother me that women would objectify men in adverts because that's people do in real life. It's how a lot of people choose their partners. For me it's just one of those things (besides, I'm pretty sure almost everyone on this planet has treated some man or woman like an object). I think this would be the same the other way around; I think it would be more damaging to infer that certain things make someone more or less of a woman than to objectify women in a 30 second video clip.

I agree with this totally, it's definitely one-sided to complain about adverts which objectify women when there are plenty that do the same for men, but it doesn't really bother me personally. Sex sells and adverts like that appeal to the lowest common denominator of consumer. I think it's tacky to be honest, but what winds me up more is this 'MAN CRISPS' 'It's not for girls!' etc. crap. I hate the 'real man' idea and I think it's dumb, all you do with adverts like that is homogenize society. I also disagree with trans* labels in this sense too, I don't understand how someone can say they dislike traditional gender roles but claim they're 'male' now because they identify as 'male'. What exactly IS 'male'? You're not really becoming male, you're just conforming to traditional gender roles and reenforcing the idea that men should act/look a certain way.

[.~:Sly Foxx:~.]

Minor disagreement on the 'trans*' thing here. What someone who is trans* wants more than anything is to BE that sex/gender, and one of the ways to get close to that is by behaving more like that other gender. Is it conforming to stereotypes which maybe aren't true/are bad for society/etc.? Yes, of course it is. But because people are so ingrained in those stereotypes, there's no way they'll perceive you as anything but if you don't act within those role, so even if you disagree with it, of course you're going to feel pressured into acting that way just to convince people that this is who you really are.

More than that - hey, just because I don't think people should be box-set, doesn't mean I necessarily think we shouldn't have a sense of masculine and feminine. I know lots of girls who love feeling girly by wearing pretty skirts and flowers and pink, and if that makes them feel effeminate, that's fine. And I'm sure there are lots of mothers who would be very proud to stay at home and take care of their families. Beyond that I also believe that there ARE differences between the average male and female psyche, due to hormonal differences and blah - in fact, there is a condition with some females where their ovaries aren't producing as much estrogen, and a lot of these people are trans* but no longer feel that way after the problem has been resolved. So, in my view, the problem isn't with having common gender roles; it's when people want you to fit into them, and are surprised/judgemental if you don't.

[Milsap]

I hate the 'real man' idea and I think it's dumb

I think it's one of those words/phrases like 'respect', 'literally' and 'banter' that has had its meaning disrupted in the last few years. Some of the stuff that James May does is what I like being defined as the 'real man'. You know, sheds, power tools, classic cars, gadgets, that sort of thing.