Topic: PKMN.net's Tier Lists

[f3raligatr]

Right then, members of PKMN.net, a little request. It has come our attentions that the tier lists on this website are currently out of date. Not being completely lazy, but we request that the changes be made evident in here for simplicity when it comes to updating them.

If you do believe that a Pokémon deserves to be relocated, please give good reasoning.

Sorry but personal experiences cannot be taken that seriously because they aren't universal; what's happened to you might not have happened to everyone else. However, we do welcome discussion, and if you seriously believe a Pokémon deserves a relocation, then we will consider it. =]

----- Ubers -------

~ Changes to be made, only think there's Garchomp really..


----- Overused -------

~ Changes to be made

Raikou to be moved to Borderline?


----- Borderline -------

~ Changes to be made


----- Underused -------

~ Changes to be made;

Shaymin to be moved to borderline.
Kadabra and Haunter to be moved to UU at least. Questioning the need for them to be there at all?
Chansey to be moved to UU.
Grumpig to be moved to UU.
Articuno to be moved to UU.

Zangoose to be moved into UU?


----- Neverused -------

~ Changes to be made

[Zy]

Like I whined about on IRC, Zangoose deserves more. It was previously NU according to Smogon but I think it should be UU.
Reasons:
Zangoose Speed ties with Lucario and Porygon-Z - And can OHKO Both of them with a Swords Dance boosted Close Combat
Zangoose also outspeeds all variants of Tyranitar OHKOing this time without Swords Dance, but with an Adamant Life Orbed Close Combat
Zangoose can also outspeed every non-scarfed Heatran in existence then OHKO with a Swords Dance Boosted Close Combat again, even with Jolly and without Life Orb.

Zangoose's defences may be frail as heck, which is risky when it comes to speed ties and priority moves, but in the lower tiers of UU and BL, I'm sure Zangoose can wreak more than enough havoc.

[Enigma]

Dragonite is in OU. I personally think it should be placed in Borderline. Dragonite's usage was only up there with Salamence due to having the rare Outrage + DDance combo, but now that Salamence has access to this combo, Dragonite is reduced to using gimmicky defensive sets, or subpar mix sets. As a result, I think it should be reduced to BL, as Platinum makes it below Overused, I think.

Also, Raikou...it's in OU, but I rarely ever see it on Shoddy. Is it really used that often to have a place in that Metagame?

Shaymin's actually in UU at the moment, for some odd reason, according to Smogon. Just from my own thoughts, and no evidence, I would have thought that it would have been BL for sure - too strong for UU, but I rarely see it in OU, and with 100 across the board and a rather poor typing...can't see it being suitable for that tier. :S

Deoxys-E - I really don't think it should be in OU. Completely centralises the Metagame, as it can sweep a whole team that doesn't invest heavily in bulky EV spreads and natures.

Kadabra and Haunter - are they really too overcentralising for the UU metagame? At the moment they're in BL, and I can't see why. <_<

Also, Chansey is in BL. IMO, Chansey is essential for stopping Special Sweepers in UU, or at least, an option outside of Hypno and Grumpig. I think it should go to UU.

Articuno should go to UU as well, in my opinion. Stealth Rock is rife in all Metagames, and I think that dents it heavily. I don't believe it will overcentralise UU, I think it's more likely that it will actually be a decent addition to that tier.

Grumpig is also in BL...I thought it was a staple of most UU teams. ^^;

Hippopotas is also banned from BL...why is this? Why are BL teams not allowed a Sandstreamer? :S Same with Snover...:S

Zy: Zangoose is currently BL. I agree, it should go in UU, as I don't think it overcentralises the metagame there at all. However...does it overcentralise the NU metagame?

[Zy]

According to Smogon it's NU o.O
But yes, I think it does centralize the NU. If we take a look at NU's finest Defences;
Cloyster - Weak to Close Combat, Swords Dance Boosted CC on a 252/252 HP/Def Impish Cloyster hits for 106.58% - 125.33%. OHKO
Agrron - Same conditions, except for a x4 weak instead of x2. Damage: 188.08% - 221.22% OHKO
Bastiodon - Less defence, x2 Weak. Damage: 210.49% - 247.53% OHKO

In fact, if you go to Smogon, click "NU" to sort out all NU Pokemon, then click "Def" to sort them in order of Defence, everything up to Marowak is OHKO'd by either Close Combat or Return, factoring Swords Dance. And the best part? Zangoose outspeeds everything there too.

[TCoZ]

I don't know if this has been brought up, but why don't we use the Smogon tiers, as they do vigorous playtesting and are considerably cleverer at competitive battling than us? I mean, we can't say that something 'dominates the metagame' unless we have played a large amount of matches with several other people in that metagame who know what they're doing, surely. You can theorymon all you like, but you actually have to playtest to see if something is broken.

Also, Smogon's NU tier is just what hasn't reached UU by usages. It's not balanced atm.

[f3raligatr]

I don't know if this has been brought up, but why don't we use the Smogon tiers, as they do vigorous playtesting and are considerably cleverer at competitive battling than us? I mean, we can't say that something 'dominates the metagame' unless we have played a large amount of matches with several other people in that metagame who know what they're doing, surely. You can theorymon all you like, but you actually have to playtest to see if something is broken.

Also, Smogon's NU tier is just what hasn't reached UU by usages. It's not balanced atm.

I do want it to be a blend between the Smogon list, which I appreciate is going to be a bit more accurate than ours, but with some input into where we put certain Pokémon to give us some individuality from them. Of course, if this doesn't work out then it can always be changed, but I'd like to see this topic used to discuss these things, similiar to how the big tier discussion went ages ago...

[TCoZ]

So we're editing a good tier list... because we want to be individual? Despite the fact this will most probably worsen it?

[Lord Raven]

Smogon's list is based upon usage, which is why I think OU should be be 80-90% based off theirs.  BL is really the only "logic" tier, which is underused Pokemon that are too good/centralising for the UU atmosphere, and Smogon are rather conservative about putting stuff in BL -- there's only five Pokemon and one of them's only there because he incites a weather effect.

I'll get arguments like "this is our tier list not smogon's RAH RAH RAH RAGE RAGE RAGE" -- smogon are a hell of a lot more reliable than us, and if we want our information as accurate as possible then it has to be based off theirs.
And why is it that I suggested a stickied topic like this about a year or more ago but it only goes into effect now?  <_<

EDIT:  TCoZ kinda cut me off but I don't see post notification, but what he said is more or less what I said in a nutshell.
Individuality and accuracy do not go hand in hand sometimes.

[TCoZ]

There's no real need to have many pokémon in BL. From what I've heard from people new UU is an incredibly balanced tier and even if that means there's only a few pokémon banned there's nothing wrong with that as the tier lists are designed so as many pokémon as possible are usable in certain tiers.

I think usage is the best way to determine tiers, personally.

[Lord Raven]

Especially considering the near infinite amount of possibilities that Pokemon has.

[f3raligatr]

So we're editing a good tier list... because we want to be individual? Despite the fact this will most probably worsen it?

I never said about entirely altering the tier list. All I want to do is to take it and have a bit of a discussion over it, see what we think, and if we do deem something to be a little 'off' then we do so. I mean, you've already altered it by wanting to have Zangoose in UU instead of NU as it is there, all I'm asking for is an open topic to be here so that we can uncover any more.

Nothing major. But having this open for a little whilst to lead into the SMP being reopened is all I'm asking for, to have some discussion and to have it so that it's not just a tier list copied word from word from Smogon, regardless of their accuracy, but it's something we've at least been able to say we've had a word in some of the choices.

Smogon's list is based upon usage, which is why I think OU should be be 80-90% based off theirs.  BL is really the only "logic" tier, which is underused Pokemon that are too good/centralising for the UU atmosphere, and Smogon are rather conservative about putting stuff in BL -- there's only five Pokemon and one of them's only there because he incites a weather effect.

I'll get arguments like "this is our tier list not smogon's RAH RAH RAH RAGE RAGE RAGE" -- smogon are a hell of a lot more reliable than us, and if we want our information as accurate as possible then it has to be based off theirs.
And why is it that I suggested a stickied topic like this about a year or more ago but it only goes into effect now?  <_<

EDIT:  TCoZ kinda cut me off but I don't see post notification, but what he said is more or less what I said in a nutshell.
Individuality and accuracy do not go hand in hand sometimes.

I can't answer the "And why is it that I suggested a stickied topic like this about a year or more ago but it only goes into effect now?  <_<" question as it is not my place. Sorry.

However, see above for the majority of things I had to say.

[TCoZ]

Erm, what? I never said anything about Zangoose.

[f3raligatr]

Erm, what? I never said anything about Zangoose.

Was a reply meant to address your post by answering to everyone.

[TCoZ]

Those who have argued about using Smogon's tiers didn't say anything about Zangoose, though, and there will always be people who will disagree on tier placement no matter how good those tiers are.

[Lucariojr]

I don't care what everyone else says about this. It's good for people who don't know about tiers, and we don't have to them direct off-site.

DEOXYS-S FOR OU~ EDIT:YAY ITS IN~~

EDITEDIT: Kecleon and Vileplume aren't half bad. I vote UU for both.