Author Topic: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life  (Read 8940 times)

0 Members, Big Brother and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hahex and Oshawott

  • Number 500 of the PUK crew. Who started this anyway?
  • Joeno Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
  • Gender: Male
  • Holding on to what I haven't got.
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2014, 16:51 »
You haven't said anything relevant in terms of semantics so I'll just raise this:

I think you should actually research the game before you make comments like this, because you're judging it completely out of context. Considering how little you knew about this game I don't really think it's your place to say how the Mii is represented. In Tomodachi Life, you're essentially creating a Mii especially for the game, it's not actually *your* own Mii. It doesn't represent the same characteristics as you if you don't want it to. What you are saying might be correct if Tomodachi Life actually used Miis directly, but they do not.
Man, I looked at some trailers and the Nintendo Direct for the game. They never said anything about it not using the Miis directly, so I assumed that they just used the same ones.
Except wait, I did a bit more as well. From the Wikipedia page:
Quote
which the player can import from their 3DS, other devices, or QR codes, or create from scratch using the 3DS' camera or the in-game creation tools.
So, although some miis are going to be created in game, there's still a very high chance that players are going to put in their own avatars into the game.

Also, the problem with comparing the game with Mario is that the Mario games represent one particular relationship. In the same way, the Mii represents one particular person, who has a tendency to a particular type of relationship. It's strange to put Mario in a homosexual relationship, because he's a straight man. He's straight because the Mario games are a riff on the fairytale genre. In the same way, it's strange to put a homosexual person in a straight relationship, because that particular person is gay. So ultimately, any analogy trying to compare the two doesn't quite work, since Tomodahi Life should theoretically be applicable to the universal, rather than the particulars.

Quote
How about if you think it's so easy to patch out then you write a patch actually including it?
That analogy doesn't really work either. For one, we don't even have accsess to the code of Tomodachi Life. If it was made on a DS game, then maybe it would be a little easier to put some magic gameshark code, but it's not.

Secondly, Nintendo's a pretty large company that's filled with programmers who are many times more skilled and apropriate to coding than, at the very least, I am. If Nintendo made the decision to include same-sex marriage in Tomodachi Life, then it'll only be at most a slight inconvinience for their programmers. There's also bug testing as well, but so what? If they were making a sequel, the game would need to be debugged anyway.

And then here:
Quote
Amusing you should use this as an example because 1) Animal Crossing does not allow any skin colour outside of white
Joeno used the example of a "positive" feature in the game. You've highlighted a "negative" feature. A game's allowed to have both good and bad parts about it. Joeno's not saying that Animal Crossing is a perfect game, just that it was one particularly good feature. There was also some upset about the lack of other ethnicities in the game, like the article you linked pointed out. Still, contrary to Joeno's point, I recall there being less interest in the lack of diversity of skin colour than there is now about same-sex marriage. 

Quote
Once again we come back to the musician + album example.
People buy music because it sounds good, and not necessarily for any political statement it's making. In order for the artists to make decent music, then there has to be some sort of artistic separation between fan and artist. The (good) musician doesn't also act purely out of the motive of money, but because of a genuine appreciation and enjoyment of the music-making process. If people buy the music, then that's a happy coincidence, but they need a relatively little amount to continue making music.
 
Then the other kind of musician is more interested in money than the music. The use of "artist" in the case of this person isn't entirely apropriate. I'd say Nintendo is a little more like this musician, in that they're in it for the money, primarily. If people don't like the music for the first musician, then not buying it is of little concern to him. But the second musician is concerned. He's not an artist, he just wants money. His music is purely a means to the end of money. Likewise, Tomodachi Life, in terms of Nintendo's overall motives rather than the individual coders artists etc., is made to be sold.

So to speak, Tomodachi Life isn't a work of art, unlike the music artist's album. Nintendo are also very concerned with what the consumers think of their products, because they have the primary intention of selling the product to them. That's what a responsible company would do, and where their responsibility lies.

Offline Spriter

  • Sentret Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 3299
  • Gender: Female
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2014, 18:17 »
And as I've ALREADY SAID, if you made it 'more universal' you would completely nullify the entire mechanic in the first place. Please DO SOME RESEARCH. You've obviously not played this game and have absolutely no idea as to what the marriage mechanic is like. Maybe you should actually buy the game before you judge it.

Hold on, the game isn't out in EU / America until June...so unless you got it from Japan, then you couldn't have played it...

The question is, have you played it either? If you have, fair enough, but as far as I know you haven't outright stated you have played it.

Offline Turner

  • Sentret Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2014, 19:51 »
Nevertheless, I would like an explanation of what is the main difference between these, Soap Operas and "regular dramas". Perhaps then I/we will be able to grasp the grace of this argument.

It's the same as comparing anime to cartoons. There's just such a massive difference in culture and demographic that they're not at all the same. J-Dramas revel in cliches and over the top ham acting. They normally only go on for 1-2 cours and often feature the same tired actors over and over. Soap Operas and Dramas here would never consider breaking the 4th wall, that would just confuse the audience, but it happens a lot in J-Drama, also slapstick violence and sound effects are common. The whole genre is defined by its cliches and the audience probably wouldn't enjoy it were they not there.

The golden age for J-Drama was in the 80s, the sequence you see when you propose and marry in Tomodachi Life plays out in a very similar way to the cliches atypical at the time; the male makes a heartfelt proposal in a cliche environment and the female stares blankly and responds with a very wooden "My pleasure." ("喜んで。") followed by emotional orchestral music.

If you give me access to the source code I'll happily do so.

Well if you are ever able to do it then maybe you'll convince everyone (Nintendo included) just how great you are and how easy it was to include in the first place.

And, in response, anyone has the right to give their opinion about Nintendo's decisions, call them out if they feel they have been handled inappropriately, make it clear they won't buy the game with the current design decisions (and take it into account for future purchase decisions) and otherwise discuss and state how they feel about the issue and whether they feel the right issue has been made.

There is a big difference between the actual complaints being made though, is it wrong to complain about the lack of feature simply because you wanted it? No. No more than complaining about the lack of a feature in a Pokemon game.

Is it okay to complain about the lack of same-sex marriage because you believe it's Nintendo's job to represent a minority? No. It's not, yet this is the reason people are making such a fuss in the first place. It's not up to Nintendo to be some kind of beacon of light for raising awareness of minorities yet this is exactly what people are expecting of them when they try and act as though there is some kind of controversy in not including the feature.

Quote
Also, the problem with comparing the game with Mario is that the Mario games represent one particular relationship. In the same way, the Mii represents one particular person, who has a tendency to a particular type of relationship. It's strange to put Mario in a homosexual relationship, because he's a straight man. He's straight because the Mario games are a riff on the fairytale genre. In the same way, it's strange to put a homosexual person in a straight relationship, because that particular person is gay. So ultimately, any analogy trying to compare the two doesn't quite work, since Tomodahi Life should theoretically be applicable to the universal, rather than the particulars.

They both take place in an entirely fictional scenario though, their job isn't to represent you in your entirety but rather insert a vague version of yourself in a fantasy world. The Miis also won't have most people's haircut, they won't have everyone's build or features or gender or wear the clothes that players will equally identify themselves with, but we don't complain about the lack of those features as being discriminatory because they aren't. Your Mii is no more you than Mario or even the protagonist of Pokemon, yet in B/W2 there is no option to go on a date with Curtis.

Quote
And then here: Joeno used the example of a "positive" feature in the game. You've highlighted a "negative" feature. A game's allowed to have both good and bad parts about it. Joeno's not saying that Animal Crossing is a perfect game, just that it was one particularly good feature. There was also some upset about the lack of other ethnicities in the game, like the article you linked pointed out. Still, contrary to Joeno's point, I recall there being less interest in the lack of diversity of skin colour than there is now about same-sex marriage.

But the two aren't the same at all, Animal crossing uses the same models for both male and female, allowing the player to wear female clothes does not require any special programming as it fits the male exactly the same way as it fits the female. In that situation it really is a case of it being easier to leave the option on than explicitly turn it off.

In Tomodachi Life, it doesn't work like that. The whole marriage mechanic is an extended cutscene whereby the Male and Female Miis in question propose in a manner similar to atypical 80s J-Dramas, this is literally followed by a bed scene which results in a visibly pregnant female Mii and offspring that inherits features from both the mother and father..

Marriage in Tomodachi Life is literally a joke and there would be no way to accomodate same-sex marriages without the joke being completely lost, not to mention all the other features bolded that are also difficult to tweak to suit a same-sex marriage scene.

Hahex. I am asking you right now to explain to be how the above should be changed to accommodate same-sex marriage without conflict to the following:

1) Retaining the joke/reference to 80s J-Drama which predominantly features a female and male equivalent scene
2) Explains why the male is pregnant despite this not being biologically possible
3) Explains why a bed scene is shown followed by the sound of a baby crying to imply that a child was just conceived
4) Explains how the offspring Mii has obvious features of both parent despite this not actually being possible

I'm guessing you can't do this because it would be impossible. So please, do not talk about a feature you clearly haven't witnessed and don't understand.

Quote
People buy music because it sounds good, and not necessarily for any political statement it's making. In order for the artists to make decent music, then there has to be some sort of artistic separation between fan and artist. The (good) musician doesn't also act purely out of the motive of money, but because of a genuine appreciation and enjoyment of the music-making process. If people buy the music, then that's a happy coincidence, but they need a relatively little amount to continue making music.

You can literally say the exact same thing about videogames. Seriously. I'm going to requote this with videogames and absolutely nothing changes.

Quote
People play videogames because they are fun, and not necessarily for any political statement it's making. In order for the developers to make decent videogames, then there has to be some sort of artistic separation between fan and artist. The (good) developer doesn't also act purely out of the motive of money, but because of a genuine appreciation and enjoyment of the videogame development process. If people buy the videogame, then that's a happy coincidence, but they need a relatively little amount to continue making videogames.

Oh and both great videogames and great music have been made with bags and bags of cash (Making good music is certainly not a cheap process) and also with virtually no money (some of the best videogames have been made on virtually no budget).

Quote
So to speak, Tomodachi Life isn't a work of art, unlike the music artist's album. Nintendo are also very concerned with what the consumers think of their products, because they have the primary intention of selling the product to them. That's what a responsible company would do, and where their responsibility lies.

Thank god this was the last paragraph, because I would have stopped reading here regardless. Are you honestly telling me that videogames are not art? Game development is an art, programming is an art - just because it is logical process does not make it devoid of creativity. On the contrary videogame development is absolutely an art.

If you call yourself a Pokemon fan, you should know this. R/B wasn't made with the intention of being some kind of hit seller because there really was no market for such a game. Read this book by Satoshi Tajiri and then tell me that developing a videogame isn't an art.

Hold on, the game isn't out in EU / America until June...so unless you got it from Japan, then you couldn't have played it...

The question is, have you played it either? If you have, fair enough, but as far as I know you haven't outright stated you have played it.

Tomodachi Collection as it is called in Japan was released in 2009 and Tomodachi Life was released last year. I've already seen both games being played through in their entirety on a niconico stream. So no, I haven't played it but I know exactly what the marriage feature entails which is more than can be said to some of the biggest critics of it in this thread.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 23:06 by Turner »

Offline Lord Raven

  • token american
  • Senior Staff Member
  • Fan Rotom
  • *****
  • Posts: 20546
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh, I haven't had a cavity in over forty years.
    • View Profile
    • GTS+
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #93 on: May 17, 2014, 21:08 »
There is a problem in videogame culture where same sex relationships are ignored or hated when they happen (see The Last Of Us for a recent example. That doesn't make it okay.
Are you talking about Bill or the DLC?  Because Bill's homosexuality has very little to do with the story (and really anyone's sexuality has little to do with the story) and the DLC had incredible reviews in general, with the one moment being a talking point amongst people (and the creators of the DLC have basically acknowledged them as being gay).

I'm not saying you're wrong or anything but I don't quite think that's the example you want to use.
"In case of accidental ingestion, consult a mortician."

Offline Pam-the-Lamb

  • Pack it in Bryn
  • Sentret Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4852
  • Gender: Male
  • Rub my belly and call me Ceri
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #94 on: May 17, 2014, 21:14 »
 Wouldn't Ellie be the one who drew the controversy? I had no idea about Bill until about a week after completing it.

Offline Hahex and Oshawott

  • Number 500 of the PUK crew. Who started this anyway?
  • Joeno Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
  • Gender: Male
  • Holding on to what I haven't got.
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #95 on: May 17, 2014, 21:18 »
Like in all forms of media, there's a distinction to be made between games that are made for art's sake and games that are made for money's sake. There's also degrees between them. Is Resident Evil 6 made with the same subtleties in the horror genre as Resident Evil 1 or 2? Does something like "Schindler's List" have the same artistic value as "Lesbian Vampire Killers"?
Quote
They both take place in an entirely fictional scenario though, their job isn't to represent you in your entirety but rather insert a vague version of yourself in a fantasy world. The Miis also won't have most people's haircut, they won't have everyone's build or features or gender or wear the clothes that players will equally identify themselves with, but we don't complain about the lack of those features as being discriminatory because they aren't. Your Mii is no more you than Mario or even the protagonist of Pokemon, yet in B/W2 there is no option to go on a date with Curtis.
Isn't it entirety possible that people identify more with the fact that they're gay, rather than any accidental predicate of themselves? I don't think the importance of someone's haricut or clothes is equivalent to their sexual orientation. Or maybe some people are more senstive to their sexuality as a result of the changes in social attitude to them?

Mario is an entirely different character to the player and is never intended to have any say whatsoever about the person playing the game. Even if the Mii is only vaguely representing the player, then it's still an entirely different matter. You can keep going on about how the player has no real control over the Mii, or isn't meant to be really represented, but even the etymology of the word "Mii" is supposed to be related to the concept of the self.

The thing about Pokemon as well is that there isn't even an option for straight marriage, or any love sub-plot as well (aside from the one that's very barely hinted at in X/Y, which is dodgy enough as it is.) If there was, would there be a similar level of complaint? Hard to say.

Quote
is it okay to complain about the lack of feature simply because you wanted it? No. No more than complaining about the lack of a feature in a Pokemon game.
What? Didn't you only just say that it was justified to complain about a missing feature? Isn't it OK to complain about a missing feature in Pokemon as well?

Quote
Hahex. I am asking you right now to explain to be how the above should be changed to accommodate same-sex marriage without conflict to the following:

1) Retaining the joke/reference to 80s J-Drama which predominantly features a female and male equivalent scene
2) Explains why the male is pregnant despite this not being biologically possible
3) Explains why a bed scene is shown followed by the sound of a baby crying to imply that a child was just conceived
4) Explains how the offspring Mii has obvious features of both parent despite this not actually being possible
Even though it's predominantly a female-male scene, I don't see the problem with simply replacing the female with a male. Then, their clothes would probably have to match in the actual wedding. Everything else can be the same. Then, have the scene finish after the bed sequence, with no mention of a baby, so at about 1:20 in this video. The J-drama stereotype doesn't necessitate that the couple have a child immediately in the next scene. In fact, "101st Marriage Proposal" finishes straight after the proposal. You can still keep the cheesy fireworks and music.

Quote
Well if you are ever able to do it then maybe you'll convince everyone (Nintendo included) just how great you are and how easy it was to include in the first place.

But the two aren't the same at all, Animal crossing uses the same models for both male and female, allowing the player to wear female clothes does not require any special programming as it fits the male exactly the same way as it fits the female. In that situation it really is a case of it being easier to leave the option on than explicitly turn it off.
Of course it's going to be a little more mechanically difficult to add same-sex marriage than it is for allowing cross-dressing, but honestly, if Nintendo are going to make a sequel to the game, then they're hopefully adding new features anyway. Either way, the company is still going to be going over established mechanics and adding new ones. Otherwise, there's no point in making a sequel if it's exactly the same as the original.

So there's going to be another intensive bug testing process, as well as the inclusion of other features. I don't imagine that the people of the world are in a desperate rush for Tomodachi Life 2, so Nintendo have the time and resources to add it in. Whether or not Joeno, or any one individual here, can add same-sex marriage into Tomodachi Life isn't important; what's important is that Nintendo have the people who can put in same-sex marriage. It's a little more time-consuming and difficult than making the sequel would otherwise be, but the way you've presented the task makes it seem like it's impossible to do.

Offline Lord Raven

  • token american
  • Senior Staff Member
  • Fan Rotom
  • *****
  • Posts: 20546
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh, I haven't had a cavity in over forty years.
    • View Profile
    • GTS+
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #96 on: May 17, 2014, 21:19 »
I have no idea.  Ellie drew controversy either because she represents a "butch" female (which makes no sense to me - everyone in the world of The Last Of Us is basically like Ellie, including Tommy's wife - out of necessity.  She's also a teenager and I knew a bunch of teenage girls that acted like Ellie) or because of that kiss - and there's little controversy because it wasn't really a platonic kiss according to the developers.

Now the only reason it was "hated" or not fully emraced, if anything, was because it came out of nowhere, and stuff like that is shocking.  I think it would've been way better received had it been alluded to in the original game.
"In case of accidental ingestion, consult a mortician."

Offline Turner

  • Sentret Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #97 on: May 17, 2014, 22:05 »
Like in all forms of media, there's a distinction to be made between games that are made for art's sake and games that are made for money's sake.

Maybe so, but it's not your place to dictate that. You may sit there and say "This was made for the money" but for all you know this could have been something developers had been stewing on for years. There really is no distinction to be made as far as you are concerned.

You can keep going on about how the player has no real control over the Mii, or isn't meant to be really represented

"You can keep going on about the facts, but I'm choosing not to acknowledge them!"

Even though it's predominantly a female-male scene, I don't see the problem with simply replacing the female with a male.

Because that wouldn't match the cliche it is supposed to represent. Opinion discarded.

The J-drama stereotype doesn't necessitate that

Please list 5 of your favorite 1980s J-Dramas before you decide what the stereotype necessitates. No, watching the trailer for Tomodachi Life does not justify your opinion.

but the way you've presented the task makes it seem like it's impossible to do.

Because it is.

Tomodachi Life's Marriage Feature = A joke
The joke = explicitly making fun of a certain cliche from a certain aspect of Japanese popular culture
The cliche = exclusively heterosexual in nature

There. That's the reason why. If you can't understand this, then you are lacking braincells because it's really not  a difficult concept to grasp. It's the same logic as to why you wouldn't expect a movie set in 1800s America to depict a black president as being perfectly normal and acceptable.

Offline lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes

  • 🌘
  • Joeno Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Gender: Female
  • posting on pkmn.net and gets grounded
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #98 on: May 17, 2014, 22:18 »
can someone explain the Last of Us thing cos its one of those games i wont be playin until a good year or so cos im ghetto as all hell and wasted my entire videogame budget on two xenon xbox360s (outside of like, two 3ds games) like a clown
which, well, you know what xenon 360s do best, might as well just threw my money up my own arse really






Quote
And let's not forget, it's not Nintendo's responsibility to represent hetero or homosexual relationships. What they do with their game is their business and it's not anybody's right to a different game.

you realise "doing w/e we want without regard for whether this'll sell or not" is their current (losing) strategy i.e. the dreadful performance of the wii u



i mean they've got too much money in the bank after Profit Season to do a sega (rip god bless my sweet prince (︶︹︺)) but i'm hoping they won't do a Pharma Industry with that profit (sit on it and sod about for several years, collapse when they fail to do anything worthwhile because they expect the same anomalous profits they always did)


the 3ds xl is currently their only good console in the market atm, altho being less worse than the ps vita isn't hard and they haven't deservedly tanked as badly as say, the ouya , but still

Quote
You might as well say that Super Mario Bros is homophobic because it only portrays a heterosexual relationship,

well its two grown men travelling everywhere and fighting to the death for each other, everythings phallic shaped (mushrooms, toads, goombas), you slide down a giant pole at the end of a level and fireworks happen, theres even a big tall one to spoon the little one, what do you think that means

like do you ever see the princess and mario canoodle or does mario ever show love outside of dutiful rescuing of the princess and "oh ur safe thats good i guess" or what



christ, mario even gets kissed on the cheek by bowser and a poundland version of wario at one point in mario history so i think you're just in denial really
           

Offline Joeno

  • WebMaster
  • Senior Staff Member
  • Name Rater Hater
  • *****
  • Posts: 6338
  • Gender: Male
  • "It's only love, what is everyone so scared of?"
    • View Profile
    • PKMN.NET
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #99 on: May 17, 2014, 22:40 »
There is a big difference between the actual complaints being made though, is it okay to complain about the lack of feature simply because you wanted it? No. No more than complaining about the lack of a feature in a Pokemon game.

And this is the very point where we disagree. In my view, it is okay about complaining about a lack of a feature. That's what is done in game reviews, in comparisons between games, between consoles, in many other places.

People have complained about the lack of contests in Pokemon games. That's fine. People have complained about the lack of RNGing being possible in new games. That's fine.

If you can't complain about features missing or not being what you want, that's a big chunk of game criticism and review gone.
Peter <3<3<3<3

Pong And Beyond - Playing through 1001 video games before we die...



P-O-K-accent-E Balls!

Offline Turner

  • Sentret Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #100 on: May 17, 2014, 23:07 »
And this is the very point where we disagree. In my view, it is okay about complaining about a lack of a feature. That's what is done in game reviews, in comparisons between games, between consoles, in many other places.

People have complained about the lack of contests in Pokemon games. That's fine. People have complained about the lack of RNGing being possible in new games. That's fine.

If you can't complain about features missing or not being what you want, that's a big chunk of game criticism and review gone.

I'll be completely honest here, that is an absolute typo on my behalf. That was supposed to be "Is it wrong to complain about the lack of same-sex marriage because you believe it's Nintendo's job to represent a minority? No. It's not".

Offline Hahex and Oshawott

  • Number 500 of the PUK crew. Who started this anyway?
  • Joeno Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
  • Gender: Male
  • Holding on to what I haven't got.
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #101 on: May 17, 2014, 23:32 »
Maybe so, but it's not your place to dictate that. You may sit there and say "This was made for the money" but for all you know this could have been something developers had been stewing on for years. There really is no distinction to be made as far as you are concerned.
If there's no distinction, then how can you assert that it is an artful masterpiece where the opinion of the buyers are totally irrelevant? Even so, it's ridiculous to say that the developers don't care about how well it sells either.
"You can keep going on about the facts, but I'm choosing not to acknowledge them!"
There are no facts about it. What people interpret their mii as in any game is their opinion at the end of the day. If people see themselves in their Mii, then they see themselves in their Mii. Just in the same way that I can interpret The Hunger Games as some deconstruction on the way reality TV and celebritiy culture is treated in today's society.
Because that wouldn't match the cliche it is supposed to represent. Opinion discarded.
Does it have to? The fairytale genre doesn't typically have plumbers saving princesses from turtles, it's supposed to be Prince Charming saving the princess from a dragon if anything. The fact that you still recognise Mario as a fairy tale shows that there's a degree of interpretation involved in whether or not something is a parody of something else.
Please list 5 of your favorite 1980s J-Dramas before you decide what the stereotype necessitates. No, watching the trailer for Tomodachi Life does not justify your opinion.
OK I'll bite, what J-drama do you reccomend to watch?
Because it is.

Tomodachi Life's Marriage Feature = A joke
The joke = explicitly making fun of a certain cliche from a certain aspect of Japanese popular culture
The cliche = exclusively heterosexual in nature

There. That's the reason why. If you can't understand this, then you are lacking braincells because it's really not  a difficult concept to grasp. It's the same logic as to why you wouldn't expect a movie set in 1800s America to depict a black president as being perfectly normal and acceptable.
1800s America is an actual historical location. Tomodachi Life takes place on some fictional island. Even though the marriage system may be based off of J-dramas, it's not set IN a J-drama. I don't expect a black president in 1800s America because there was no black president in 1800s America. But Nintendo don't have to abide by any historical accuracy, they can choose whether or not to include same-sex marriage.

Thus, they've chosen not in order to maintain the integrity of a genre of TV that they're attempting to parody. Now, to go back to your Mario analogy, if Mario rescued Wario from Bowser each time, and it was Wario who kissed Mario, then it's still identifiable as a fairy tale. We have a heroic man who braves countless dangers in order to save the love of his life. Although maybe I don't have perfect knowledge on how exactly the J-drama proposal is supposed to be different from any other proposal, with proposals and weddings in general, then traditionally they're seen as "exclusively" heterosexual.

Now what do I necessarily see in a proposal, and what represenents the way it's seen at least where I live? You have two people who love each other very much, the usually male party gets down on one knee and presents a ring to the other party, while asking, "Will you marry me?" Of course it's usually between a male and a female; I can't personally recount a gay proposal on TV. But the distinguishing features of the proposal is the kneeling down and the presentation of a ring. If two men or two women did the same action, then it's still immediately recognisable as a proposal. The kneel and ring is also cheesy and cliche, but it signifies the proposal nonetheless which is why it's still in practise. If it was a straight couple where the man merely asks the woman if they want to be married, without the kneel or the ring, then that doesn't really fall into the proposal cliche that I have. 

For the sake of illustration, let's take out J-drama and replace it with public proposals. Here's one. It has all the clichés of a public proposal, it's in a big sports stadium, everyone cheers when the man says yes, there's lots of excitement etc. etc. I wasn't confused for a moment on whether or not it was a proposal. If that was altered for some comedy effect, then it's still recognisable as a parody of a proposal.

What seems to be the specific part of the J-drama parody that doesn't allow same-sex marriage is that it is supposedly specifically parodying 80s j-drama in particular. But even then, it's only a parody. So, seeing as I'm totally clueless on the matter and that you are much more of an expert with this sort of thing, can you explain to what degree the Tomodachi Life is parodying J-drama, why it only parodies J-drama in the 80s in particular and especially why a parody of the typical J-drama proposal/marriage scene loses it's funniness when it's between two people of the same sex, rather than those of opposite sexes?

There's also a case for localization as well. If a game like "Osu! Tatake! Ouendan" can be completely transformed into "Elite Beat Agents" for an American release, then adding in same-sex marriage certainly seems trivial in comparison, at least to my uneducated, programming illiterate mind. Speaking from personal experience, and what seems to be the case for everyone in this thread bar you, Western gamers don't typically "get" the whole 80s J-drama thing. Similarly, they wouldn't "get" the concept of a cheer squad. Thus, maintaining the integrity of the marriage 'joke' isn't as necessary for westerners, and many(?) people would prefer it if they sacraficed the joke that they don't get for same-sex marriage instead.

Offline Turner

  • Sentret Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 4463
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #102 on: May 18, 2014, 00:18 »
If there's no distinction, then how can you assert that it is an artful masterpiece where the opinion of the buyers are totally irrelevant? Even so, it's ridiculous to say that the developers don't care about how well it sells either. There are no facts about it. What people interpret their mii as in any game is their opinion at the end of the day. If people see themselves in their Mii, then they see themselves in their Mii. Just in the same way that I can interpret The Hunger Games as some deconstruction on the way reality TV and celebritiy culture is treated in today's society. Does it have to? The fairytale genre doesn't typically have plumbers saving princesses from turtles, it's supposed to be Prince Charming saving the princess from a dragon if anything. The fact that you still recognise Mario as a fairy tale shows that there's a degree of interpretation involved in whether or not something is a parody of something else. OK I'll bite, what J-drama do you reccomend to watch?1800s America is an actual historical location. Tomodachi Life takes place on some fictional island. Even though the marriage system may be based off of J-dramas, it's not set IN a J-drama. I don't expect a black president in 1800s America because there was no black president in 1800s America. But Nintendo don't have to abide by any historical accuracy, they can choose whether or not to include same-sex marriage.

Thus, they've chosen not in order to maintain the integrity of a genre of TV that they're attempting to parody. Now, to go back to your Mario analogy, if Mario rescued Wario from Bowser each time, and it was Wario who kissed Mario, then it's still identifiable as a fairy tale. We have a heroic man who braves countless dangers in order to save the love of his life. Although maybe I don't have perfect knowledge on how exactly the J-drama proposal is supposed to be different from any other proposal, with proposals and weddings in general, then traditionally they're seen as "exclusively" heterosexual.

Now what do I necessarily see in a proposal, and what represenents the way it's seen at least where I live? You have two people who love each other very much, the usually male party gets down on one knee and presents a ring to the other party, while asking, "Will you marry me?" Of course it's usually between a male and a female; I can't personally recount a gay proposal on TV. But the distinguishing features of the proposal is the kneeling down and the presentation of a ring. If two men or two women did the same action, then it's still immediately recognisable as a proposal. The kneel and ring is also cheesy and cliche, but it signifies the proposal nonetheless which is why it's still in practise. If it was a straight couple where the man merely asks the woman if they want to be married, without the kneel or the ring, then that doesn't really fall into the proposal cliche that I have. 

For the sake of illustration, let's take out J-drama and replace it with public proposals. Here's one. It has all the clichés of a public proposal, it's in a big sports stadium, everyone cheers when the man says yes, there's lots of excitement etc. etc. I wasn't confused for a moment on whether or not it was a proposal. If that was altered for some comedy effect, then it's still recognisable as a parody of a proposal.

What seems to be the specific part of the J-drama parody that doesn't allow same-sex marriage is that it is supposedly specifically parodying 80s j-drama in particular. But even then, it's only a parody. So, seeing as I'm totally clueless on the matter and that you are much more of an expert with this sort of thing, can you explain to what degree the Tomodachi Life is parodying J-drama, why it only parodies J-drama in the 80s in particular and especially why a parody of the typical J-drama proposal/marriage scene loses it's funniness when it's between two people of the same sex, rather than those of opposite sexes?

There's also a case for localization as well. If a game like "Osu! Tatake! Ouendan" can be completely transformed into "Elite Beat Agents" for an American release, then adding in same-sex marriage certainly seems trivial in comparison, at least to my uneducated, programming illiterate mind. Speaking from personal experience, and what seems to be the case for everyone in this thread bar you, Western gamers don't typically "get" the whole 80s J-drama thing. Similarly, they wouldn't "get" the concept of a cheer squad. Thus, maintaining the integrity of the marriage 'joke' isn't as necessary for westerners, and many(?) people would prefer it if they sacraficed the joke that they don't get for same-sex marriage instead.

Everything you've said here is completely irrelevant and hasn't countered a single point I've made sensibly. You're purposely re-interpreting arguments to suit your own. Stop it. You are fighting a losing battle, either debate the facts or don't post at all. Pontificating about J-drama when you haven't even watched one is moronic and trying to derail the thread by getting me to recommend some when you're already neck deep in trying to spout opinions on them is not going to save you.

Quote
There's also a case for localization as well. If a game like "Osu! Tatake! Ouendan" can be completely transformed into "Elite Beat Agents" for an American release, then adding in same-sex marriage certainly seems trivial in comparison at least to my uneducated, programming illiterate mind. Speaking from personal experience, and what seems to be the case for everyone in this thread bar you, Western gamers don't typically "get" the whole 80s J-drama thing. Similarly, they wouldn't "get" the concept of a cheer squad.

Elite Beat Agents is a completely different game altogether. Opinion discarded

Offline Hahex and Oshawott

  • Number 500 of the PUK crew. Who started this anyway?
  • Joeno Fan
  • *****
  • Posts: 2273
  • Gender: Male
  • Holding on to what I haven't got.
    • View Profile
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #103 on: May 18, 2014, 03:34 »
If your argument hinges on Tomodachi Life being a parody on J-dramas, then there's not much left to discuss. You don't want to elaborate on your points, so I can't say anything else. Seeing as I don't see how the J-drama parody aspect can even possibly relate to same-sex marriage, then I'll ignorantly conclude that there is no relationship between the two, and therefore that your point about Nintendo attempting to maintain a joke has no relevance to this thread.

Also, I maintain that it's entirely possible for Nintendo to add same-sex marriage to the sequel to Tomodachi Life, without too much trouble.

As a company, Nintendo should carefully consider what people have to say about their game, in order to make an informed decision on what games people want to buy. The fact that they've issued statements regarding the issue have shown that in this instance, they have done exactly that. But ultimately, I concede that Nintendo have the final say on what games they will make.

If the people for Miiquality are fortunate, then the sequel may possibly have same-sex marriage included.

Offline Lord Raven

  • token american
  • Senior Staff Member
  • Fan Rotom
  • *****
  • Posts: 20546
  • Gender: Male
  • Oh, I haven't had a cavity in over forty years.
    • View Profile
    • GTS+
Re: nintendo excludes gay marriage from tomodachi life
« Reply #104 on: May 18, 2014, 05:08 »
can someone explain the Last of Us thing cos its one of those games i wont be playin until a good year or so cos im ghetto as all hell and wasted my entire videogame budget on two xenon xbox360s (outside of like, two 3ds games) like a clown
which, well, you know what xenon 360s do best, might as well just threw my money up my own arse really
Something like this

And this is the very point where we disagree. In my view, it is okay about complaining about a lack of a feature. That's what is done in game reviews, in comparisons between games, between consoles, in many other places.

People have complained about the lack of contests in Pokemon games. That's fine. People have complained about the lack of RNGing being possible in new games. That's fine.

If you can't complain about features missing or not being what you want, that's a big chunk of game criticism and review gone.
It depends on the reviewers.  I've seen some dumb complaints in reviews about things that are missing; I've seen a review of Fire Emblem:  Radiant Dawn where the reviewer complained that you couldn't insert your Miis into the game.

If you don't like the game because it doesn't have a feature that's fine, but saying a game sucks because it doesn't have a feature doesn't sit well with me.  There are an endless amount of ways to improve a game and there's an endless list of things a game doesn't have.  Doesn't mean the game is worse because of it, it just means the game could be better.

Of course, it's all contextual.  There have been some dumb complaints in reviews and there have been some genuinely good ideas as to how a game could benefit from features.  Some features don't always fit into games.

Quote
As a company, Nintendo should carefully consider what people have to say about their game, in order to make an informed decision on what games people want to buy. The fact that they've issued statements regarding the issue have shown that in this instance, they have done exactly that
I think fans that speak out don't speak for every buyer of a game.  Can you do me a favor and back up your argument by finding a petition that told Nintendo to include same-sex marriage, then compare it to the number of people who are buying the game?  There's a faction of people indifferent, there's a faction of people against it, and there's a faction of people for it from my point of view, and fans outcry is not very telling of the actual number of people who want it in the game.

On top of all that it's not like Nintendo said that they think homosexuality is abhorrent...  The impression I get is that localizers aren't too good at messing with the coding to begin with.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 18:43 by Lord Raven »
"In case of accidental ingestion, consult a mortician."