Latios, Mega Pinsir, Talonflame

[Richard and Blaziken]

If you know me at all, you'll know that I spend an extensive amount of time competitive battling on Pokemonshowdown.com, specifically the Singles OU tier. I'd like to talk about three Pokemon that I think are broken in OU, and I'll explain my case for each one. I'd love to spark discussion on them to see what you think as well.

Latios

This one is listed first for a reason. In my opinion, Life Orb Latios is probably the single most dangerous Pokemon that can be thrown onto any team and nearly always do its job well. As far as I know, Tyranitar and Chansey are the only Pokemon that can switch directly into Latios and not be 2HKO'd by the correct move. Chansey doesn't do much back and is incredibly easy to wear down. It's also not very good this generation with the increased usage in Knock Off, so it's not really a counter, so much as it is a temporary stop. If Latios is paired with Guts Conkeldurr, switching it into Chansey has nearly no punishment, and puts the opponent on the run.

Tyranitar is much better at this, as the Sand it summons gives it a Sp. Defense boost, but if Stealth Rock is up and you switch into Surf, 252 HP/4 Sp. Defense Tyranitar is cleanly 2HKO'd 92% of the time. For a "counter", Tyranitar isn't doing very well here. Assault Vest Tyranitar deals with Latios just fine, but making this a necessity on any team isn't really healthy for the metagame.

Considering access to STAB Draco Meteor and Psyshock, with coverage options in Surf, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Fire/Fighting, and even a healing option in Roost to mitigate chip damage from Life Orb, I'm not sure why this thing is still OU. You can't even use Sylveon and Florges as an argument, as they're both easily 2HKO'd by Psyshock unless you invest heavily in Defense, and both of these Pokemon are terrible in OU anyway.

Mega Pinsir

Why the hell is this still OU? It has 3 counters: Skarmory, Defensive Zapdos, and Defensive Rotom-Wash (don't switch it in before it Mega Evolves though, if it has Mold Breaker). I'm honestly completely baffled as to why this is still OU. Zapdos isn't useful for anything in OU besides countering Mega Pinsir and being a subpar Defog user (if you're weak to Stealth Rock, you're bad at removing it), so that's already a bit over-centralizing, but let's consider the other two. Skarmory can easily be baited out by physical attackers with U-Turn (such as CB Scizor, Landorus-Therian, etc.), and trap-killed by Magnezone unless it runs Shed Shell, and very few actually do, opting instead for Leftovers or Rocky Helmet. Air Balloon Pokemon like Heatran and Aegislash can serve as one-time checks, but it's far from ideal as they can't switch into anything except Earthquake, so Pinsir is still killing something and can just switch out if your Air Balloon Pokemon is a threat to it. Bold Rotom-W takes 55.5 - 65.7% from a +2 Return, so it better be at full health if it's going to serve as a counter. Also, you better have Stealth Rock up, because Volt Switch from 4 Sp. Attack Rotom-Wash is doing 63-75%, and that's not even a guaranteed OHKO after assuming regular Pinsir taking 25% from Stealth Rock. It also has priority Aerilate Quick Attack and base 105 Speed, so hitting it with priority isn't very useful after it has gotten a Swords Dance.

Talonflame

There are 3 things in OU that can safely switch into both Choice Band and Swords Dance Talonflame in OU: Rotom-Wash, Heatran, and Tyranitar. Tyranitar doesn't like switching into U-Turn (Adamant CB does 42 - 49.5%), so that's not a real candidate for counter. Rotom-Wash needs to be Bold and max/max HP/Defense to repeatedly switch in and make Talonflame's efforts useless, but it does this well enough. Likewise, Heatran has enough tools to stop Talonflame, resisting Flying and being immune to Fire, while also carrying either Stealth Rock and Roar, or AncientPower (this in itself shows just how big an influence Talonflame has on the metagame, though it also serves as a means to at least damage MegaZard Y). But with these being the only counters in OU, you're pretty much forced to use one or both of them if you don't want SD Talonflame to just wreck you on a consistent basis. Stealth Rock does rip into Talonflame pretty hard, but it's not a big problem for SD Talonflame since it also has Roost. This one I don't think is as big an immediate problem as the previous two, but I still think having only two good counters in OU is a bit problematic.

What do you think about these three? I'm genuinely curious about what you use to handle these threats, and if you think they deserve the banhammer.

[Delicious_Scout]

Notice: Everything written here is thought to be interpreted under the assumption that one can switch into any other Pokémon into any given moment, especially critical ones

Ah... the three OU of OU. They remind me of Terrakion and the shenanigans one had to think about to stop them.

In fact, Terrakion still does well in any role, and just one more weakness does not do anything big against it, since it already had a weakness towards 6 types.

One had to think what could stop it... and the answer lied in Gollurk, the awesome Pokémon with not-so-awesome status in OU, Tangrowth, which actually got better in Gen 6 despite the nerf of HP, and others like Toxic-Spiker Nidoqueen, Slowbro, Gliscor and Landorus-Tits, and Hippowdon if you were lucky. Imposter stuff against the Banded or Orbed sets were also quite good at countering those, but... Latios, Talonflame and Mega-Pingasir are a bit different.

First, Latios. It does not matter when you use it -either late game or as a lead-, he does what it is supposed to do magnificiently. But it lacks what the other two don't; four-move-syndrome. Did you forget about Surf and you are not DD-ing? Heatran will kill you. Did you underestimate Poison-types as a defensive force, and so you did not bring a second-STAB to use? You are going to have a hard time (although... who is using Poison Types, anyway? I do, but... I meant somebody who is not nuts -of course, I do not mean Gengar, and Crobat is taken down by Thunderbolt-) against Venusaur. Do you dislike HP's low base power? Scizor is saluting.

[In construction, it's lunch time!]

Not everytime can give Conkeldurr a slot and do well; hyper-offence, stalling and annoying do not tend to appreciate its help; the fact Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are everywhere does not do anything good in its favour.



Talonflame is Infernape's product of a crazy night with a Dodrio a flying type. Given that few Pokémon that belong to OU resist this STAB, it is not a surprise to see why Talonflame is such an abortion a threat. Give it a fire STAB and priority Flying moves (yes, moves, like Roost) and you have a Pokémon that can fit in annoying teams as well. Heck, it can fit nearly everywhere bar stall teams. It can even bulk up to some success. Unless you want to carry the super amazing Regirock, whose body is rockin' ready, or Ryperior, which can actually do pretty well in any possible tier in the right hands (it can fit almost everywhere but in annoying teams, as far as I am concerned), OU options to deal with it are limited. But wait! Talonflame can carry Natural Gift, and heavily damage an unexpected counter (unreliably). Faster priority? Just Extreme Speed from Pokémon that are either too weak (Arcanine) or that are hit by super effective damage by any STAB (Lucario). It can even U-turn to safety! The only "reliable" way to deal with it is to outsmart it. How? Earthquaking it when it roosts due to Stealth Rock (rare) or by luring it. Granbull has proven to be highly proficient doing this. It can force something out with intimidate, Bulk Up the next turn AND hit with Stone Edge, when Talonflame thinks the incoming hit will be a crap due to Fire's resistance to Fairy. Or, as I said, by bringing unexpected things like Regirock or Ryperior.


MegaPinsir... oh, my; this is the real headache! Flying-STAB boost by its ability, Earthwauke for almost perfect coverage, and it just needs four moves to work. This is the definition of scary, and I think the only reason why it is in OU is because Smogonites do not take a hint and need more bans plz Smogonites use X-Scissor it has a hard time setting-up. Its priority is not that fast (compared to Talonflame, its nemesis), and it needs the boost (Talonflame has Choice Band); without it, many things are "just" 2HKOd, and Rotom can Volt-change it while a faster Pokémon or a good priority user enter into the battle. Moreover, it is very predictable; I am sure many people has worked in some ass-kicking shenanigans to counter this bad-dough; for example, Skarmory is a hard counter, as well as Bronzong.


This is the basic, as I see. They do not deserve yet the GabeN-Hammer trip to Übers, but they will for sure be in the top of OU for a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo(6969 os later)oooong time.

[Spriter]

In my honest opinion, Latios is nowhere near as broken as Mega Pinsir.

Latios is far easier to deal with, in my experience. Priority is certainly one good way to nail it. Even then, priority is good in general, so Latios doesn't "force" you to pack priority. It's much more easier to check than fully counter, granted, but there's a lot of them that can outspeed and OHKO. Scarf Latios is predictable, mainly DM / Surf / Psyshock / Trick, and when it gets locked into an unfavourable move you have the advantage again.

Life Orb Latios isn't mega hard to deal with, with priority and LO recoil on your side. It's not broken, you just need to be prepared for it, in the same way you have to be wary of say...Mega DD Tyranitar or CB Azumarill. HP Fire is becoming somewhat less common nowadays, so Scizor is starting to become a better way to beat Latios. Sylveon doesn't mind taking it on either.

However, I absolutely agree with you on Talonflame and Mega Pinsir. The latter has slayed every single team I've made in OU, even when I have checks and "counters" on my side.

[SaRo|Rapidash]

......but I like Talonflame

I don't think Latios is as bad as Mega Pinsir, as it suffers from 4MSS and is walled by pretty common pokemon unless it runs a specific move. I mean:

No Surf - Heatran
No HP Fire - Scizor; Ferrothorn
No Psyshock - Blissey; Chansey (although, as you said, chansey does pretty well already)
No Psychic STAB - Azumarill

It's also pretty easy to revenge kill, with things like Talonflame, Bisharp, Mawile, Scizor, Pinsir, Choice Scarfers etc doing the job nicely.

~~~

Pinsir I don't have much experience with, but from what I see he excels in how difficult he is to revenge kill, and the amazing power behind his Flying STAB. Talonflame has to deal with a meh 86(?) base attack, but Pinsir doesn't even come close to having that problem with it's huge Attack of I believe 160(?) and has an incredibly painful 102 BP STAB with Aerilate boost. It's speed is pretty good too - 105 let's it outspeed everything marginally bulky, and so it can smash them with return and pick of weak things like Alakazam with Quick Attack, so he seems pretty amazing, but I couldn't say overpowered as I haven't had enough experience battling with or against him.

~~~

Talonflame I'm not really sure on, I haven't noticed it be overpowered first hand, and when Richard wanted to battle me to show me I Stone Edge'd it on the switch, but whenever I've used it myself it's certainly seemed to pull it's weight, and I run it with CB and no Spinner/Defogger, sooooo xD

[Hahex and Oshawott]

Latios, I don't think is a huge problem. It has potential for a lot of utility, but as has been mentioned a few times already, suffers from 4MSS. I think Dick makes a valid point that it's easy to revenge kill as well.

Likewise, Talonflame, although strong, isn't overwhelming. It has one 120 priority move, which is about as likely to kill itself than kill another pokemon. It can't outright OHKO pokemon, but it's fairly potent in revenge killing. I'm also curious to where all the "OMG 4x weaknewss to SR, useless" went to. Charizard and Talonflame both running around? I suppose its partly down to the Defog buff but even then, I didn't expect it to be so severe. Anyway, outside of Talonflame's one priority move, it's also painfully slow when trying to do anything else. Since it has priority, a lot of people prioritize (heh) bulk on it rather than speed.

The thing about Mega-Pinsir though, is that the amount of megas that smogon is banning is cusping on slightly ridiculous. I guess that's not a particularly valid reason for why it shouldn't be banned though. One thing I would've said about it, is that using it comes at the expense of mega-lucario, gengar and kangaskhan, but of course that's not really a problem any more. Is it possible that smogon could simply keep banning megas until there's none left?

[Richard and Blaziken]

Unless your revenger has Pursuit, it can just switch right back out. Blaziken is super easy to revenge kill with priority, didn't stop it from being banned because nothing could switch in safely. Latios is slightly different because TTar can if it doesn't switch into Surf, and it lacks Speed Boost... but it has base 110 Speed, so it's probably still going to hit you switch when you switch anyway. 4MSS isn't a huge issue because until you know what move it's lacking, you can't switch into it safely.

Talonflame has base 126 Speed. If painfully slow means outspeeding the vast majority of the tier, then yeah, it's slow. Bulk isn't a great idea, since it needs 252 Speed on Adamant nature to outspeed Lati@s by one point and U-Turn out or Brave Bird if it has an SD.

The megas Smogon has banned is an irrelevant issue; they've said before that megas aren't treated any differently than normal Pokemon in the banning process. If all the megas are broken (they're not), all the megas get banned. Simple. Nothing but the 3 Pokemon I've mentioned can switch into Mega Pinsir, and Zapdos is pretty worthless outside of countering Pinsir.

[Hahex and Oshawott]

Jesus, 126!? That makes it even faster than Greninja. Man I had no idea...