Smash Bros. With Friends (3DS)

[Lord Raven]

Update 1.0.4 is out and it ruins Greninja, along with "balancing" (nerfing) many others. Done with competitive Smash, but it was a fun month.

ahem

I don't understand the complaining about balance patches, do we really want to see something like Meta Knight in Brawl?  Only time tells if characters are "ruined" or a metagame is unbalanced but some things in this game were absolutely ridiculous.  Greninja could spam a lot of attacks en masse and not face any punishment or be prone to shield grabs during massive pressure because of just how little lag he got.

I'm finding it surprising you said something bad about M2K being defeatist but now that your favorite character was nerfed a little bit you no longer want to play competitive smash.

[Richard and Blaziken]

Greninja wasn't nerfed "a little bit", it received 3 significant nerfs, and 2 of them greatly reduce its viability. Not allowing DAir to be cancellable with a Shadow Sneak is stupid because Shadow Sneak has horrible lag on it and is easily punishable, so they've removed DAir from being useful at all. Worse, Greninja's Up Smash was his only good kill move and giving it horrible lag has ruined it.

It's completely different. Being defeatist because you're losing and being upset over significant character nerfs aren't even comparable, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. Greninja is the only character I play, not just my favorite, and I feel like the nerf to Up Smash is enough on its own to make playing not enjoyable for me. Why is this an issue for you?

By the way, Greninja wasn't broken. ROB, Yoshi, Sonic, and Sheik were all good matchups against Greninja, and even a Lucario gave me trouble once. The nerf has stopped me from having fun with the character, and thus, the game, and that's sort of the point of games. It's weird, but when you ruin the only character I enjoy playing, I tend to stop having fun.

[Lord Raven]

He has pretty fast moves and he can edgeguard somewhat effectively with his aerials...  I'm not saying Greninja was broken or anything but you're raining doom on the game because your favorite character was nerfed.  I'm surprised he's the only character you enjoyed playing as though.  Is it because he was so fast and could apply so much pressure with very little ability to be punished unless someone else was fast or had really strange hitboxes (ie ROB/Yoshi)?  It's not like he can't kill with usmash, it just means you have to time it better and mind game people into it instead of spamming it.

I'm mainly making an issue of it because of how knee-jerk some of your reactions are to most metagames.  You cast doom on the standard metagame before megas are even introduced to it and you say that customs are broken little over a month into competitive Smash 3DS play.  Definitely just seems like more personal complaints than legitimate complaints.

[Richard and Blaziken]

...Are you not the same person that showed us the leaked stats? Simple damage calculations can show that many of the new Mega Evolutions are broken. I'm pretty good about doing research on Pokemon when I call something broken, and if you'd like to debate me on that, I'd be happy to do it elsewhere since this isn't the topic for it.

I didn't say anything about the Smash metagame in regards to this update. I said I was done with competitive Smash because the nerfs are significant in the way that Greninja plays (and by extension, the way I play Greninja). Don't get me wrong - I can still win with Greninja. I played and won 5 more 1v1 FG matches against 4 different people after the update, and have never lost a single match to anyone here, but again, I don't have as much fun now since my character isn't as fun to play anymore. Halting the movement of a character that is supposed to be fast isn't fun to me, and I don't think there was a need for it.

[Lord Raven]

...Are you not the same person that showed us the leaked stats? Simple damage calculations can show that many of the new Mega Evolutions are broken. I'm pretty good about doing research on Pokemon when I call something broken, and if you'd like to debate me on that, I'd be happy to do it elsewhere since this isn't the topic for it.

Bruh, we don't know that
a) they'll be allowed in standard metagame after a few months
b) they'll be viable

Look back at a lot of pre-DP speculation and it doesn't even match up with what happened to the metagame a month later.  You can theorymon all you want until it actually happens.  That's just the nature of competitive things in general.

I didn't say anything about the Smash metagame in regards to this update. I said I was done with competitive Smash because the nerfs are significant in the way that Greninja plays (and by extension, the way I play Greninja). Don't get me wrong - I can still win with Greninja. I played and won 5 more 1v1 FG matches against 4 different people after the update, and have never lost a single match to anyone here, but again, I don't have as much fun now since my character isn't as fun to play anymore. Halting the movement of a character that is supposed to be fast isn't fun to me, and I don't think there was a need for it.

Damn that sucks, I guess i just read your thing about balancing/nerfing as passive-aggressive rather than actually hatred towards it.



Oh Rich can you update mine to say "no stupid stages"?  Like I'm okay with Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Arena Ferox, Rainbow Road, Prism Tower, Brinstar, etc but not like...   Pac-Maze or Paper Mario.

[Hahex and Oshawott]

TBF, Greninja's Up-Smash was completely ridiculous. It covers his entire body by a decent amount with its range. Probably more frustrating to deal with than his shurikens. If its just as good as using all his other smash attacks, then there's no reason why you wouldn't use it all the time, so now there's just a little more opportunity cost.

I'm pretty OK with Greninja D-Air nerfs. It's similar in speed to, say, Link's and even though it has much less knockback, it bounces a few more times. It doesn't intuitively feel like a move that should be cancelable either. Up Special seems a little unjustified though. I never feel like it's seen as a particularly strong gimping tool, or the windbox is too situational to use effectively anyway so I don't quite see the point.

Bomb cancelling's gone, which I'm a bit sad about. Vectoring has also seemed to have disappeared as well. Should lead to safer combos but it makes me wonder why it was in the game in the first place, only to go after a month.

[Richard and Blaziken]

It had terrible range on the sides and left him open before the nerf, now it's not even usable, and it was his only good Smash attack before, so he now has no good kill tools. Even if they had added some lag, I don't think the ten added frames of lag are justifiable.

Shadow Sneak had ridiculous end-lag already, so cancelling it with a Shadow Sneak was often more dangerous than not cancelling at all, and it was very punishable. I can't defend them removing this, though I'm not overly bothered either.

Hydro Pump, ironically, is the one nerf I'm okay with. I gimped the hell out of people with Hydro Pump, to the point that many people absolutely could not recover because of it.

[SirBlaziken]

Oh, by the way. I got 3ds smash for christmas, so challenges may begin for me.

I'll restate that i'm up for whatever you guys want.

[Hahex and Oshawott]

It had terrible range on the sides and left him open before the nerf, now it's not even usable, and it was his only good Smash attack before, so he now has no good kill tools. Even if they had added some lag, I don't think the ten added frames of lag are justifiable.

Side smashes have a nice bit of range and come out pretty quick. Down smash is also instant on both sides, so that's also quite nice for punishing rolls. Then again, I don't know exact stats for when they kill, but side smash seems fairly reliable from what I can tell. I don't main Greninja though, so your opinion has a bit more weight over mine.