ANNOUNCEMENT: Member Council

[Turner]

Just as a question, how will this address the issue in the other thread? I thought that the PKMN.NET board was for opinions, suggestions and feedback as it is. While this may be a great idea, it's going off on a tangent from the original thread. I hope you haven't forgotten about that, because I know we haven't.

[Enigma]

More to the point...how do we ensure this doesn't become a popularity contest?

[Bloatedfish]

More to the point...how do we ensure this doesn't become a popularity contest?

What kind of criteria do you think people should meet to deserve votes?

If it involves listening to people, then inevitably more popular people will have the advantage, eh.

[Webby2]

What kind of criteria do you think people should meet to deserve votes?

I think it should be members who are known on the site, and are easy to talk. That way they can get the opinions and then pass it on in the hope of trying to improve the forums for the sake of the members if that makes sense.

As long as the person can do the job, then surely it doesn't matter whether they are popular or not?

[Lord Raven]

I feel that it shouldn't be a full democracy; people who have opposing opinions to the staff and that have shown this should be apart of the Council -- devil's advocates are not hurtful especially since they lack power.  I just feel the voting idea is flawed overall.

As long as the person can do the job, then surely it doesn't matter whether they are popular or not?

That's the thing, people will be elected based upon friends and not potential.  It's more of a cause of someone that's speaking for the newbie who will need a good first impression.  After all, without a good first impression the rest of the image is flawed.  The way the site is currently run I feel is too strict, as well as the fact that it basically feels like a circle of friends these days as opposed to a full community.  PUK can't get much new stuff if the staff keep running it too strict.

I'm not advocating complete destruction of the rules, just less enforcement.  I feel the rules should not be so broad that they can easily be interpreted a million ways from Sunday, and that's what's wrong.  I don't think a member council will shut us all up entirely either, because the more "popular" members are the ones that 100% agree with the staff and are more likely to be put on.  It turns into a popularity contest in the end, not a contest of who is best at advising the leadership.

Our point is that it's a personality flaw that Joeno himself was completely unwilling to budge.  The other staff are okay because they are open to complaint about the rules, but Joeno is always stern about what he says and not very often does he ever seem to agree with the other side.  These are my experiences at least, when I asked some other staff their viewpoint about some bans I've had in private, they said "they wouldn't have done a ban."

A member council will not fix this, because it does not accurately represent the entirety of us because it is a popularity contest.  What happens if the entire council are people who agree with the staff 100%?  Then the many veteran members posting in the other thread have no voice at all, and there should be no reason that the minority be screwed over because a couple newbies who just joined and racked up 50 kajillion posts have a bigger voice than ours when we've seen what's been going on for years ourselves, and have actively defended you guys a couple years ago.

[Enigma]

I dunno...is this not just a more attractive way of complaining? It's not like we have a whole forum for it already.

The issue wasn't that we didn't have a place to complain or suggest stuff...it was more that we felt that you, Jeroen, were unapproachable. I don't think this Council will help solve that at all.

[Joeno]

Okay, stop this right there. The complaining about me goes in the other topic, this one is for the member council. Stick to it.

[rapidash-mike]

I think it's a pretty good idea... it's at least worth a try.

I think it'd would be good to have different council members from different sections of our community, such as the Spriting Community or the Role Playing community or the Team Building community, so that those council members can report the kinds of problems they see in those areas.

[Enigma]

Okay, stop this right there. The complaining about me goes in the other topic, this one is for the member council. Stick to it.

I'm sorry? You've made the mistake of thinking my opinion of your leadership skills are confined to just one topic. This is not the case.

I didn't post in that topic and jump on a bandwagon because it seemed like a 'free shot at the admins' as some have described it. No, it was just the best place to post an opinion I've held for a long time.

This Member's Council strikes me as being the solution to the problem (the problem being Jessie's leaving post and the subsequent posts remarking on your reign as admin) and I think that your attitude makes you unnapproachable, rendering the Member's Council utterly obsolete. Would you rather me post why I think the Member's Council is a bad idea in the topic about Jessie's departure, rather than the topic which was created for discussion about it?

It seems you haven't taken a single thing underwing that was pointed out in the Truth topic Jeroen. Jessie left because she had an issue with you. The eight pages that followed were because people had an issue with you. A Member's Council, designed to bridge gaps between members and staff (the rest of whom, I do not have a problem with at all) is not addressing the issue that has caused this Council's herald.

I'm not suggesting the Council was created entirely because of the drama yesterday - I am fully aware that it was an idea before this all went on.

But the timing the staff has chosen to unveil this new project suggests that it is a direct response to yesterday's issue, and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that it's completely avoided the main topic - which, as I've attempted to stress, is you, Jeroen.

We don't want to have a more 'personal touch' with the rest of the staff. I find it much easier to talk to Rex than I do you, or bring up an issue with Mike, than I could with you.

And really, as a member of staff myself (I am the co-leader of the SMP, after all,) I think that I too am approachable, and would greatly welcome anyone to challenge me on this point. I can't think of a single moderator or admin, who I would be hesitant about asking something, save for you.

So why create a Member's Council, supposedly designed to make staff more approachable, when everyone already feels comfortable with the majority of staff members anyway?!

And no, I'm not keeping my opinion of you confined to one topic. This doesn't end because I've stated my opinion of how I feel you've run the site. I'll keep on telling you how I feel until I feel it's changed. And I trust everyone else will too.

[Afro-Disiak]

Isnt it a shame that we had to lose one of our most respected and well known members for this "solution" to rear it's ugly head. Sure you can throw some more mods in there, thats what these "Member Council" people are right? Mods without titles? Give it some time and they will all be groomed the same way other staff members have been and watch them have no effect whatsoever. Nice try guys.

[Turner]

Agreed Tim. It strikes us that you're just going to wait for the other thread to dissolve, Joeno. Which is a cowardly thing to do and completely dodging the points we've raised. You seem to be on the misunderstanding that we're posting to 'get something off our chests'. This is wrong. And to think that you can fob us off by ignoring the thread and then putting something like this through is just a joke really. We will not forget this, and we will continue to drag it up until we get what we think is a decent response from you.

[Typhlosion]

Okay, shall we consider it cancelled to those who think it's a joke? Or can you only post degrading comments which add nothing to the topic? Are suggestions beyond you?

Unlocked by request, but let it be known I couldn't care less what you have to say in detail about the events of yesterday. That's completely off topic.

[Bloatedfish]

Thanks for unlocking the topic, Typhlosion!

Anyway, on topic:

In my opinion, at least, this plan is worth at least a trial, it may prove more successfull that people give it credit. I don't want to describe the two as being incredibly alike, but certainly in England (or my schoo, at any rate), we have a system of 'Form Representatives', who represent the various class forms (pupils in school are seperated into forms for registration and probably administrative reasons). Within the form, anybody is allowed to be put up for, or put themselves up for election on a yearly basis, and the majority vote of the class decides who becomes Form Rep.

So, who normally gets voted? Possibly to the surprise of some more cynical people, it is rarely the people who want to be Form Reps., nor is it the people who are 'suck-ups', often it is the most popular people, or the people with the best ideas (sometimes the two things are the same P: ).

I believe that the system here has the potential to mirror that in many ways - for the sake of example, I'll use Lord Raven. He clearly dissagrees with the behaviour of the administration, and I sincerely doubt that any amount of time spent discussing people's criticisms and suggestions with the staff would suddenly make him their bff. If he did, however, would it not be in the power of the people to have him removed, too? If you can elect somebody, surely it stands to reason that if you have the majority, you can have seombody de-elected.

Anyway, it might be fun. 

[KristenAkaRaynie-BbyCakes]

Is this still cancelled then?

I thought it was a good idea, it will most likely work as well ^^

[Neon Nocturnal]

It sounds like a great idea, then the admins can have the issues members are having, without having to wade through thousands of topics to get to the bottom of members frustrations.
How would we choose our member council... members?
Would people volunteer and then we vote?

Edit: Oh it's cancelled... and It looks like I missed Drama. I hope no ones too upset.