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I hope you realize that tiers are what allows variety in this game. OU wasn't created to exclude the majority of the game, because I'll think you'll find that the most exclusive metagames are the ones which use the tiers of 'weak' Pokemon.

If there were no tiers, and Pokemon was just Pokemon, every team would be Kyogre / Palkia / Dialga / Groudon / Mewtwo / Arceus because it would be impossible to use any other Pokemon without losing to a 6-uber team. But the fact is that we DO have tiers which means that if you do want to bust out your Crawdaunt or Golem, you can go play NU and not have to worry about being crushed by the inhabitants of the upper tiers.

In fact, OU is actually the 'most liberal' tier other than Ubers, because only some 20 Pokemon are banned and you are free to use whatever you wish. Sure, statistics would indicate that there is only a real variety of some 25-40 Pokemon in OU, but if you have a problem with that, there is nothing stopping you from using your Beedrill in OU, and if you don't like the quality of OU Pokemon, there's always UU and NU for ya.

And to top it all off, can you even suggest a single viable alternative to the current tier system? If you think that you can think of a better system than the one which was created and refined by hundreds of people who understand the game better than you do, I'd really love to hear it.

probaly a bagon or dratini including evos



hey does anyone know what a good water type

The Best non-uber Water types in the game are: Gyarados, Suicune, Empoleon, Kingdra, Starmie, Swampert, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, Azumarill, Slowbro and Milotic. Though plenty more are usable such as Ludicolo, Omastar, Blastoise, Feraligatr, Kabutops and Slowking.

I have a question: Is dragonite better as a Tank or a sweeper. I have a Lonely Dratini that could make it a SpD Tank, or my Jolly one that could make for a good physical sweeper. Here are my desired sets for each.

Dragonite@ Life Orb/Lefties/Lum Berry
{Jolly} 252 Atk 252 Spd 252 Def

Steel Wing
Outrage/Dragon Rush
Roost
Thunder Wave

Dragonite is a bulky Pokemon, so it's speed stat, even with EV training isn't the best. SO , if I try to wave a fast looking opponent, I can have a better chance of winning with cut spped and 50% chance of paralysis. Steel wing can cover pesky ice types like Regice and Dewgong with high defense . Outrage is a pretty strong dragon move that can be covered with a lum berry after confusion. Dragon rush has no after effects, but the lower accuracy is a problem.

In any situation where you'd use Jolly Dragonite, use Salamence. Seriously. Physically offensive Dragonite should always run an attack boosting nature (Adamant, or Lonely/Naughty if you use Fire Blast). A Jolly Dragonite has 369 Attack and 284 Speed, an Adamant Salamence has 405 Attack and 299 Speed. There's really nothing important in OU that you outrun by having a +spe nature on a base 80 Pokemon, other than +spe base 70's, which don't really exist outside of Scarf Breloom and Metagross who have a speed boost anyway. Never use Jolly Dragonite is a general rule of thumb. The only reasons to use Dragonite over Mence are for its defensive abilities or wall breaking, so abuse them with a bulky Dragon Dance set, or a Mixed set with Superpower.
 

Just making a note that if you're completely unsure of how your EVs have gone wrong, you can trade your Pokemon to someone with Pokesav, get them to load your Pokemon and check the EVs (without necessarily changing them).

If the values remain unchanged, your Pokemon is still technically legitimate.

For the same reason that Gallade is BL yet Gardevoir is NU, or Slowbro and Poliwrath are UU but Slowking and Politoed are NU.

They have different stats and movepools. Latios is packing base 90 attack and base 130 SpA at the cost of its defensive stats (which are still by no means bad, at 80/80/110). OU can barely handle Latias as an offensive threat with base 110 SpA, so obviously throwing in a useable attack stat, Dragon Dance, the ability to viably use Outrage and a whopping 130 SpDef is going to be too much.

Timid Specs Latias Surf vs 252 HP Tyranitar: 45-53%, Tyranitar, one of Latias' best checks can barely withstand its attacks.

Timid Specs Latios Surf vs 252 HP Tyranitar: 51-60%: needs leftovers to have a chance to survive.

Timid Specs Latias surf vs 248 HP / 156 SpDef Scizor: 38-45%; managable...

Timid Specs Latios Surf vs 248 HP / 156 SpDef Scizor: 45-51%, a 2HKO 95% of the time with Stealth Rock.

Latios beats most of Latias' main checks. It can even beat Blissey with Outrage and Dragon Dance.

P-Z never was in BL. According to Smogon, it's always been in OU, but I'd rather it move down to UU.

also, I'm fairly certain anything that takes less than 50% from the calcs I posted can switch into a Nasty Plotted Attack of the same respect.

Porygon-Z actually was BL for a period of time, before the UU split.

Egh. Porygon-Z will never dominate UU simply because like 25% of the tier outspeeds and OHKOes it. If it uses Scarf, it's easily walled.

[120.12% - 142.41%]

If a Pokemon uses Outrage (or Thrash), they are forced to stay in and continue attacking until the two or three turn rampage is over, and confusion is induced. If this wasn't true, Outrage would certainly be a broken move.

Jolly Choice Band Weavile's Ice Shard vs 0/0 Neutral Defense nature Dragonite:
508 Atk vs 226 Def & 323 HP (40 Base Power): 388 - 460 (120.12% - 142.41%)

Unless your Dragonite is running a significant amount of defensive EVs, Weavile's OHKOing it. Weavile is far faster than Dragonite too, so only Dragonite with a speed boost of some sort will be able to hit Weavile with ExtremeSpeed before taking an Ice Shard, and Scarf, DD or Agility Dragonite will almost never run Extreme Speed unless they are absolutely terrified of Weavile and Mamoswine.

You don't need swords dance, you just need the standard choice band set to pretty much always beat Dragonite one on one. ExtremeSpeed doesn't really change anything.

Dan Dan beat me to Low Kick. Which does 108% Minimum to 0/0 Heatran (offensive), and 91-107% to 252/0 Heatran (which is a 48% chance to OHKO without rocks and 100% with).

Weavile now OHKOes (nearly all the time) one of its most popular checks, which can now only hope to revenge kill with a scarf.

248/6 Scizor on the other hand takes 46-54% damage, which is a 2HKO 60% of the time or always with Stealth rock. This forces Scizor to bullet punch or die, and bullet punch can easily be met with the likes of Magnezone who x4 resists it, and traps/KOes Scizor. Weavile still has a very fair shot against Scizor and Heatran in OU. There's also the fact that countering Weavile is hard in the sense that switching in your counter can allow Weavile to land a powerful pursuit, which in many cases, means it's job is done.

Simple fact is, ignoring Weavile's vulnerability to steel, Weavile is a dangerous weapon that many of OU's finest are extremely susceptible to. Salamence wants to sweep through your entire team with its boosted outrage? Good thing Weavile can assassinate it before it can touch you, and is forced to accept the swift OHKO as outrage prevents switching.The same goes for the lesser seen Flygon and Dragonite, who're still decent threats. Mixmence can just switch out, you say? Neutral natured Salamence takes 70-81% from Weavile's Pursuit while switching, which means with a little prediction, Salamence will be KOed by stealth rock and a well placed pursuit (66% of the time), and this is sealed with Life Orb recoil or other prior damage.

Speaking of pursuit, is Gengar giving you problems? If Gengar is not holding a choice scarf, behind a substitute, or lacks Hidden Power Fire or Focus Blast, Weavile means it more or less automatically dies. And in the case of choice scarf, this holds true if Gengar is locked into Shadow Ball, or even Thunderbolt if Weavile is in good health. Is Starmie being a pain by absorbing your status and ruining your entry hazards? Weavile outruns and delivers swift death with either dark move depending on whether Starmie switches. Alakazam, Azelf, Latias and even Cresselia are vulnerable to the same fate. Tyranitar and Scizor can pursuit as well? Well if Alakazam, Azelf, Latias or Gengar decide to pack Focus Blast, Hidden Power Fighting, Flamethrower or Hidden Power Fire, these two Pokemon are outsped and OHKOed, Weavile however outruns ALL of these Pokemon and can plant that pursuit before they can move, OHKOing a lot of them regardless of switching.

And if nearly universal protection from psychic, ghost, and dragon Pokemon wasn't enough, the list extends to the infamous Tyranitar. Even if holding a choice scarf or sporting a Dragon Dance boost, Weavile won't hesitate to outrun and one-shot Tyranitar with its choice of fighting attack. Other Pokemon that Weavile can revenge kill for you include non-focus sash Aerodactyl, Breloom, Celebi, Dusknoir, Rotom, Gliscor, Jolteon, Mamoswine, Porygon-Z, Ninjask, Smeargle, Snorlax, Togekiss and Zapdos. However most of these will need to be weakened, have movesets that aren't weak to Weavile or involve very risky prediction.

I firmly believe that Weavile has a place in OU, as properly supported, it gives Scizor a run for its money in as many huge threats it can check.

Rhyperior's Special Stat is beyond stupid. His speed can't even make good of Rock Polish.
But his Defence is so high, he can sponge most physical hits, even Super Effective ones, and often OHKO back.
In fact, in most cases, One-On-One, Rhyperior beats Gyarados as even with one Dragon Dance, Waterfall has a small chance of OHKOing if Rhyperior runs Adamant and 252/252 HP/Atk. After that, Stone Edge is a guaranteed OHKO, even with Intimidate.

Adamant, 252 Attack +1 Gyarados vs 252 HP Rhyperior:
574 Atk vs 296 Def & 434 HP (80 Base Power): 504 - 594 (116.13% - 136.87%)

100 Attack +1 Gyarados (BulkyDos) vs 252 HP Rhyperior:
516 Atk vs 296 Def & 434 HP (80 Base Power): 453 - 534 (104.38% - 123.04%)


Just for the record. And yes, this does count Solid Rock.

But even so, Porygon2 shouldn't be an OU. The sheer amount of other things which can take it down when it can simply counter Gyarados, Heatran and Salamence is just un-canny. It may be good at annihilating said threats, which are incredibly common, but otherwise, it falls to the likes of Scizor, Heracross and others.
Yes. It's base Stats are unimportant. Not everything will OHKO it, and you have a Focus Sash. Either way, the fact remains that Shadow Tag + Encore + Mirror Coat/Counter is more than enough to make it horribly broken. it's evident you've never been up against a Wobbuffet, and just because Wynaut is less powerful doesn't mean it can't do the same job.

What do you mean 'the sheer amount of other things'? Porygon2 is tough for nearly anything without boosted, high powered STAB or super effective (IE Fighting) moves to take down.

Damn. I meant it can't really take a Close Combat. D:

Celebi cannot take a Scizor U-Turn or Tyranitar Crunch. But it's still one of the most resilient defensive Pokemon in OU.

Porygon2 can definitely take a physical hit. It is comparable to Zapdos.

It is not OU because A. It doesn't overcentralise UU, and B. It's not used that much.

Sharpedo is much, much too frail to take any sort of hit, while at the same time it's not all that fast OR that powerful. Priority moves, faster sweepers and the UU Bulky Waters all laugh at it. (Also, for the Aggron calculation, 2HKOing something with a STAB Super Effective Choice Banded move isn't actually that impressive, not to mention in that turn Aggron can OHKO Sharpedo or paralyse it.) Sharpedo is also outclassed by water sweepers such as Feraligatr.

Much like Rampardos, Sharpedo is often shafted for something that can actually take a hit.

Dugtrio is not OU, as the metagame has shifted to exclude it. Dugtrio is mainly used to trap and defeat the likes of Blissey, Tyranitar, Heatran, Infernape, Metagross, Rhyperior, Lucario etc. Now let's see, WishBliss and Ice Beam Blissey will outstall and OHKO Dugtrio respectively, while CB Duggy barely 2HKOes in return. 404 HP Tyranitar is not OHKOed by CB Duggy, while Tyranitar will deal heavy damage in return, even with Stone Edge (which can OHKO with a CB). Duggy will also fail to OHKO Metagross and Rhyperior thanks to their massive defense stats and solid rock in the latter's case. Both of which can boost their speed to outrun Dugtrio (Rock Polish Rhyperior is much more popular now, while Metagross can KO with bullet punch anyway), and Metagross will KO with anything but ThunderPunch. Heatran is now essentially always faster than Dugtrio, thanks to scarf's popularity boost, and Scarf Dugtrio simply lacks power to do much. (284 attack iirc) This is on top of the fact that many non-scarf Heatran carry Shuca Berry. Though Dugtrio is generally reliable against Infernape, the threat of Mach Punch, Fake Out, Vacuum Wave and Scarf still exist, the priority moves have all increased in popularity. Electivire has also decreased in popularity, and will often out-speed Dugtrio thanks to Motor Drive. Sucker Punch allows Dugtrio to revenge kill frail psychics and ghosts. Oh wait, Celebi/Cresselia/Dusknoir are too bulky for it to overpower, Gengar, Mismagius and Azelf can all switch out of Arena Trap thanks to levitate, and Alakazam is both uncommon and will often run substitute. Lucario is no longer firing specs Aura spheres all the time, and LO Extremespeed is almost a given, which will OHKO Dugtrio. If Dugtrio isn't looking pitiful already, let's throw in the fact that OU's #1 (Scizor) OHKOes it with both Pursuit on the switch, and Bullet Punch, and that OU's #2 and #3 (Salamence and Gyarados), avoid its Arena Trap, intimidate it, are immune to its STAB, can use it to set up and can OHKO it. Looking good Dugtrio!

Simple fact is, Dugtrio has the worst defenses in OU (besides perhaps Ninjask) coupled with a pitiful base 80 attack. The only thing outstanding about Dugtrio is its speed, which is often negated by the ever quickening metagame's abuse of speed boosting moves and items. The metagame is simply now a place where Dugtrio faces destruction even at the hands of those that it was originally intended to check, let alone the popularity of those that check HIM.

On top of this, Dugtrio's useage has plummeted below OU standards. So why aren't we letting it into the now priority-riddled UU with things like Blaziken running amok? With base 80 attack, it's hardly overpowered. I say that Dugtrio barely even scrapes an argument for BL, let alone OU. Definitely needs revising.

Raikou, also, has never really cut it for OU in this metagame. The incredible popularity of bulky ground types (Swampert and Gliscor, mainly), Blissey, Tyranitar, and even Jolteon/Electivire really hamper it. Along with the additions of stealth rock, Magnezone and sandstorm's omnipresence hinder its ability to set up. It's also a lot 'slower' than it was in advance thanks to the addition of faster Pokemon and Choice Scarf. On top of this, Raikou's useage is not of an OU standard.

I disagree with Dragonite's move to BL, as despite its outclass by Salamence as a mixed sweeper and offensive Dragon Dancer, as a support Pokemon, a bulky Dragon Dancer, and a Wall Breaker, it is incredible. Not to mention, Salamence or not, Dragonite's Offensive Dragon Dance set is an incredible destrucive force, barely (1 base point) less powerful than Salamence, with added bulk. Dragonite's useage is still high enough to warrant an OU spot, and its move to BL would be essentially irrelevant, as BL is not a metagame.

Cradily is definitely not OU, do I even need to explain? Its useage is pathetically low and it does not possess defensive nor offensive powers that would overwhelm UU or even NU (especially since sandstorm is essentially absent in the lower tiers).

Milotic's useage is not of an OU standard, nor are Roserade's, Donphan's, Spiritomb's or Staraptor's. Yanmega or Shaymin either, but they are more controversial.

Deoxys-S is widely renowned as uber, after Smogon's vote, due to its overwhelming supportive abilities.