Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 3908 times)

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Offline Kpyna

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2011, 17:12 »
im for it, with the exception of late-term. like, sorry, but if it took you that long to have an abortion, and since you're gonna end up needing to do a partial birth abortion, why dont you just have the baby? nowadays, a mother's life is hardly ever threatened, thanks to procedures such as c-sections and other fun things doctors know how to do.

honestly i always say this story on ron paul's website even though i support pretty much the polar opposite of what he does... he used to be a doctor and deliver babies, and he gets called into one room to assist with a late term abortion. they give birth to an actual human baby, kill it, and then tuck it away like it was nothing. then he gets called to help deliver a baby that was being born early, and this baby was about the same size and stuff as the recently aborted baby, and it was the same sort of situation, except for the doctors all paid so much attention to this child and made sure it lived.

and thats the thing. if you can almost give birth to it, and if its living and breathing, you have no right to kill it. that IS murder. women are not incubators, but at that point you are carrying a human being, and you're most likely more than half way through, so just keep it, and if you cant handle it, someone else would love to have it. if it took too long for your family to decide, keep it anyways. its just so wrong. those should be illegal.

but earlier abortions, i cant find myself against. like soldiertoise said, its just like a seed. will it become a plant? yes. is it a plant? no. if i take the seed out of the ground will i have missed out on a plant? yes. but does that seed know that its gonna be a plant thats going to grow and collect energy from the sun? no way. could that seed have been a rose? yes. could that seed have been an invasive plant? yes.

and honestly i hate to say it, but the crime rate drops like its hot when abortions are legal. its because most people who have a baby can care for it, and it'll grow to be a good functioning member of society. either we can kill a fetus when its living is debatable, or we can have it grow into a man who kills a father and throws his entire family into jeopardy. if that makes any sense

Offline The Macintosh Ninja: SOH CAH TOA

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2011, 05:31 »
and honestly i hate to say it, but the crime rate drops like its hot when abortions are legal. its because most people who have a baby can care for it, and it'll grow to be a good functioning member of society. either we can kill a fetus when its living is debatable, or we can have it grow into a man who kills a father and throws his entire family into jeopardy. if that makes any sense
Maybe it's just me, but that sounds a bit like eugenics.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2011, 07:20 »
Maybe it's just me, but that sounds a bit like eugenics.
Almost, I'd consider it a bit of a ridiculous point though. Crime rates won't drop just because some people don't exist (Rates are relative). I would say it's more likely that any drop in crime rates would be down to unwilling parents no longer having to support a family that they neither want nor have the ability to care for. It's the sort of situation which drives people to theft and similar. Of course, growing up in such an environment can have a serious effect on the child's moral compass, but there's no way to judge how a person will turn out. Abortion isn't a solution to that problem, it just masks some of the problems in society.

Offline Trekkie WhoLocked Fangirl!

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2011, 08:01 »
(In responce to mr. Dalliard. I can't quote so yeah)

I feel that abortion is justifiable in the case of rape because there will be that fear of the child growing into what it's father had been.
A woman who has to face this decision has a lot to think about and who the father of the child is can take up some of this decision.
If a woman who was raped carries out the pregnancy, it will be a reminder of what happened and how she had been violated and given a baby that she did not want.

I agree that it is not the unborn foetus' fault, this is also a reason I feel abortion is acceptable in cases of rape, if the child is born the mother may take out what happened to her on the child, this could mean unintentional or intentional neglet or abuse.

On your point of a woman claiming to have been raped just to have an abortion, I do not feel that any woman could claim such a thing when it's not true, it is every girl/teenager/womans pride and freedom that is robbed of her when she (or indeed he but thats for a different issue) is raped, no woman would condemn herself to that for the sake of an abortion.                 
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Offline Lord Raven

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2011, 08:06 »
Quote
I feel that abortion is justifiable in the case of rape because there will be that fear of the child growing into what it's father had been.
Or the child could grow up unloved and unwanted in the case of someone who has consensual sex.

His entire point dealt with the hypocrisy of "if abortion is taking a human life, then isn't abortion in the case of rape also taking away a human life?"  Considering how either way you are taking a human life.  Rape can't always be proven either considering most rape cases you hear about are shrugged off by whatever judicial system in whatever country you are in.
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Offline Sebastian Moran

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 14:41 »
I feel that abortion is justifiable in the case of rape because there will be that fear of the child growing into what it's father had been.

I'm not entirely sure that there are "rapist genes", to be honest: if a child is raised and loved and given good parenting then the environment will speak volumes more than from where half of their DNA came. In fact, if Rapist Dad isn't around, that would likely be better for the child's upbringing than if he were.

If a woman who was raped carries out the pregnancy, it will be a reminder of what happened and how she had been violated and given a baby that she did not want.

I agree that it is not the unborn foetus' fault, this is also a reason I feel abortion is acceptable in cases of rape, if the child is born the mother may take out what happened to her on the child, this could mean unintentional or intentional neglet or abuse.           

As opposed to a woman who had sex consensually, but she was made to have the baby because she'd agreed to the sex? Even if she has not seen the father since? Even if she didn't know the father and what he was like? Even if he'd buggered off and she was left to raise a child that she was made to keep? 

On your point of a woman claiming to have been raped just to have an abortion, I do not feel that any woman could claim such a thing when it's not true, it is every girl/teenager/womans pride and freedom that is robbed of her when she (or indeed he but thats for a different issue) is raped, no woman would condemn herself to that for the sake of an abortion.                 

I'm absolutely not saying that crying rape is the common or typical thing to do, or saying that rape victims are liars or whatever you gather from that. In fact, a lot of my post was about how rape is not just the picture we see painted of innocent victims walking down the street and being assaulted. 
 
There is a serious problem in our culture where we tell women to watch how much they drink, stick with a friend, dress modestly, don't walk down that alleyway, don't be alone with men you don't know... and focus on that far more than telling people not to rape
I'm not saying that women shouldn't take precautions, because acting as though there aren't rapists isn't going to make them stop existing, but the fact of the matter is that if a man and a woman meet and are alone together, maybe go back to her house, and the man rapes the woman, then it will be considered by some the woman's fault for inviting a strange man back to her flat. 
If somebody is mugged, it is not their fault for walking home by themselves, but there we go. 
[and obviously men raping women isn't the only sort of rape at all, but it's the one the most possible to leave the victim pregnant and so the most relevant to this topic] 
 
Anyway, bit of a tangent there. Basically, no, I am not trivialising rape at all. I am just saying that if you agree with abortion only for cases of rape, and we extrapolate that to a law where only those who have been raped can legally have abortions, then some women may well claim that their pregnancy was due to rape instead of having to have a child. 
 
If the choice is between that and a coat hanger, pride may be a small price to pay. 
 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 14:51 by Mr. Dalliard »



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Offline Kpyna

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2011, 20:15 »
Almost, I'd consider it a bit of a ridiculous point though. Crime rates won't drop just because some people don't exist (Rates are relative). I would say it's more likely that any drop in crime rates would be down to unwilling parents no longer having to support a family that they neither want nor have the ability to care for. It's the sort of situation which drives people to theft and similar. Of course, growing up in such an environment can have a serious effect on the child's moral compass, but there's no way to judge how a person will turn out. Abortion isn't a solution to that problem, it just masks some of the problems in society.

it is proven though that the crime rate does drop. here's an entire wiki article

Quote
hey studied the children of 188 women who were denied abortions from 1939 to 1941 at the hospital in Gothenburg, Sweden. They compared these unwanted children to another group – the next children born after each of the unwanted children at the hospital. The unwanted children were more likely to grow up in adverse conditions, such as having divorced parents or being raised in foster homes and were more likely to become delinquents and engaged in crime.

as well, i feel like if they were illegal people would try unsuccessfully aborting their own babies which is, first of all, eurgh, and also extremely hazardous.

its not like people just walk up to the clinics and say, "hey, i kind of dont want this baby anymore i think, so uh please get rid of it" anyways. its a hard decision and i would like to think that they had certainly considered all of their options, and felt that this one was the best.

 for example, i think that if i was in that situation i would be between aborting the fetus and putting it up for adoption. however, my lifestyle could hardly support me carrying a child. it would take a huge emotional toll on me either way. people are going to judge you for it, and even once you get past that, if you're a student like i am, its tougher to get a decent education, which i'll need if i really want any sort of future. and even then, adoption is not a completely safe option. my friend's mom lived in a family where there were several adopted children. all of the children, but especially the adopted ones, were molested and abused, and one of them were even raped, by the father. so think of how unsettling that must be, knowing that you might now know what's happening to your kid.

 its a lot more than whether its moral to destroy the foundations of a life. you have to think if you're destroying any already standing ones.

Offline Steve Jobs

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2011, 01:23 »
For me, It's not alive until it's out. If you think your religion should prevent you from making the choice, don't make it. It's honestly a convenience for a lot of people.

Offline Quapsel

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2011, 15:34 »
To be honest, I don't understand why this is an issue at all, concerning the law.
There isn't a definite way to prove or pin down the exact point that a foetus starts sensing its surroundings, so all we can do is speculate or rely on what our society and our moral code tells us, which is different for every person.
This is not something you could ever base a law on. A law should have nothing to do with "could be"s or "might be"s. A law should have nothing to do with highly subjective ethics. Unless it is proven that a foetus can feel what's happening to it when it's aborted (which is very unlikely), then there should be no reason to make abortion illegal anywhere, as otherwise it is just based on the moral code of one part of society that somehow seized the right to dictate what other people should think.
This is not democracy. And certainly not the secular society that the 21st century western civilization promises us.

Of course, the ethics are always debatable and can differ from person to person, and I respect everyone's right to be against an abortion in their own case, but, and let me bold that for you, no one but me has the right to decide who feeds off my body and inner organs. Especially not the state.

You can't put the right of an unborn child over the right of a living, breathing woman.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2012, 01:47 »
In the words of Tim Minchin
Just 'cos Jesus couldn't read
Doesn't mean that we should need
When manipulating human genes
To alleviate pain and fight disease
When deciding whether it's wrong or right
To help the dyin' let go of life
Or stop a pregnancy when it's
Just a tiny blastocyst


Not bashing on Christian's just saying.

Offline Trekkie WhoLocked Fangirl!

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2014, 00:36 »
Was studying this in school, what I found disturbing about abortion is the surgical techniques used, there is a video 'the silent scream' and it is a surgical abortion through an ultrasound scan.
This swayed me against abortion due to the fact that the baby or 'foetus' seemed to be screaming and in pain. It was horrific to watch.
On the other hand, medical abortions are not as stressful on the mother and it is likely to be less stressful to the unborn child.

I do not think this makes abortion 'right' as such. I truly think it is an issue that some women don't think through.
I also feel it should be determined by circumstances, such as rape.
I do not think age is a contributing factor as if you get pregnant at 15 16 17 or whatever and you didn't want a child (well I don't need to move into the biology of it all)

My biggest thought on abortion is one that alot of woman disagree with, I feel that both the mother and father should have a say in wether the abortion should take place.
Yes the mother should get the final say in the matter as it is her body but by law the father has no say in the future of his unborn child.
Is it not his baby to?
Should he not have the right in the important decision of what is to happen his child?

It's been awhile, but this needs to be modified. Due to some circumstances my veiw on this is 100% different. That is all
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Offline Spriter

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2014, 20:25 »
I'll chuck my cents in whilst it's up and kicking again.

All I think is that women should have the choice between having and not having an abortion, and that it's not really right / wrong for anyone to have one, as long as there is a justifiable circumstance (not just rape, but others include incapability to care / financial difficulties and age). Of course, having an abortion just because wouldn't be great but hey, not my choice.Also, what I mean by age is that I would be okay with an abortion at any age, but I think a teen (15-18) should certainly have the right to an abortion. I think this because 15-18 is the kind of age where they are in education, and having a baby would be a bit of a curveball to getting a good education. Granted, if you were 18 and had a baby, you could go to Uni part-time so you could care for the baby, but that depends on other things too.

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Offline Kerou 犠牲

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2014, 20:40 »
I'm pro-life and whilst I personally disagree with abortion (generally speaking); due to extreme circumstances I agree with the process and should therefore be legal. However, I don't think it should be as prevalent as it is, although I do understand why.

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Re: Abortion
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2014, 23:19 »
i'm gonna jump in and say it's not my choice whether other women have abortions or whether they do not, and i believe it is as equally wrong to tell a young woman that she is ruining her life if she doesn't have an abortion as it is to tell her she is going to hell if she does have one. 


personally, i think it is important that abortions remain legal because - as has been put forth in several other people's arguments - by banning abortion you're just opening up the danger of people having backstreet abortions which leave them open to infection and injury. the rate of abortion doesn't actually go down when abortion is illegal - it just kills more people. my grandmother herself became pregnant with my mother out of wedlock in 1962 (where in the UK abortion was legalised in 1967) and backed out from a backstreet abortion clinic at the last minute.  the annual death toll when coathanger abortions were a thing was 5000 deaths a year - imagine if my grandmother had been one of them.  now, my mother is one of the lucky unwanted ones; she's fairly well rounded and well adjusted as an adult, but this isn't the case for a fair few children who are born unwanted, especially if it's a child whose care can't be paid for in a country where the mother will not receive adequate aid to help care for them (as a single example). where that is the case, it is certainly the lesser of two evils to have an abortion if neither the mother and child can be cared for properly if the child is born. or why don't we talk about salvita halappanavar? the mother and the foetus both dead because of laws on abortion - especially in a roman catholic country - seems fairly counterproductive imo.


you'll need a tl;dr after that rambling piece so uh: my own views on the ethics or abortion put aside, illegalising abortion or otherwise preventing women from having them helps nobody and probably kills about 3 times more people than it's meant to be saving. (also 70,000 women die a year from unsafe abortion and if that doesn't ring warning bells i don't know what does)


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