Topic: Feminism, Fedoras and SJWs on tumblr - Where Do You Stand?

[Sebastian Moran]

the problem is that there are two types of feminists in regards to views on equality. 
at least two that i've come across. 
 
type 1: "feminism is a movement which focuses on men and women's rights equally: it directly addresses male issues as well as female ones. a separate movement for men's rights is not needed." 
type 2: "feminism is a movement which prioritises focus on women: it directly addresses female issues and/or seeks to dissolve male issues as an eventual result of the former. if male issues are to be discussed in detail, then a separate movement should be made to focus on them." 
 
both are cool: no movement has an obligation to do anything outside of what they set out to do, and both men and women have issues. 
 
(and yeah there's also the type 3 "lol male tears/castrate all men" people who im going to lump aside as some weird tumblr sub-group of whiny teenagers. not cool. very SJWy. makes me sigh because of how bad it makes feminism look.) 
 
so you have the second group of people going "stop complaining that feminism doesn't tackle male rape/disposability/expectations, of course it doesn't because it focuses on women". which is fair enough, yknow, so the MRM is set up. 
then you get the first group saying "no, the MRM is unnecessary because feminism focuses on men's issues as well. you don't need the MRM. if you believe in equality then you are a feminist." 

so there's going to be some confusion there. particularly given as you have all the waves of feminism with their different different priorities, and you have radfems and libfems and.. ok basically most feminists each have their own definition, and may take any criticism of the movement as a whole as an attack on their own personal/unique beliefs. 
and there's a lot of "they're not REAL feminists" going on which everyone says about everyone else who differs.
diversity is great, its just confusing. 
 

oh, and may i add, when men are raped, no man takes them seriously because theyre seen as "weak" for not fighting back. this is another implication that women are weak. men are not taken seriously because theyre raped by the weaker sex. you see where im going with this? feminism removes the idea that women are weak, some women are strong and dangerous, and men who are raped or abused by their girlfriends or wives are not weak. once feminism gets through the idea that woman are just as strong as men, we will see men being taken more seriously when they report these crimes.

ehhhh john im sorry but i have shuffle uncomfortably in my seat because of this. 
so what youre saying is "yes, it's awful that men are raped, but that will get sorted out later, once we've sorted out other stuff." which could be further taken as "if you don't support feminism like you were told to, then it's your fault that raped men aren't getting taken seriously".
 
so instead of campaigning to push laws like making female rape legally recognised in places like the UK-- like it would do if there was an injustice in the law towards women, take direct action-- feminism's idea of sorting this is to let a change happen gradually once it's sorted out the much more pressing problem of women being seen as weak.

if that's feminism's way of doing things, that obviously is great, because societal expectations need to change. but i also don't see the problem in another group, one which is more focused on men, campaigning from the other side to try and break down and attack the laws directly. because its priority is changing the laws which discriminate directly against men.
with the combined efforts of two points of view: "women aren't too weak to overpower men" and "men aren't too strong to be raped", surely societal expectations and stereotypes will be broken down from both sides... they're both working towards the same thing.

maybe im just hopelessly naive lmao. 
 

feminism will also end slutshaming, which would help in cases such as the stubenville case we all know and love so much. when that girl was raped by high school boys, she was a slut, she didnt look after herself, she lost friends and was bullied for being a slut for being raped, and the men in that case were all sympathised with. oh, theyre so talented, such a shame, such a terrible tragedy, these boys raped a girl and had so much potential, what a shame. 

cases like this are awful and disgusting. theyre also rare, but very publicised. like tales of kids getting trapped in dumped refrigerators. CNN got a lot of backlash for taking this point of view (and rightly so), amongst both men and women, both feminists and people who aren't feminists. the link you gave on it mentions the negative reaction several times, and has a section about response.
 
there are other similar cases that i can think of are when the judge makes some comment about how a rape victim was dressed "provocatively". again, disgusting. again, the judge in question got banned from similar cases or lost their job for bias. 
also defence lawyers say things like that. because theyre defending the person accused of rape. so theyll do anything they can to get their client off the hook by making out that it was consensual and that the woman just regrets it. theyre liars who say awful things, because thats their job, and they do that for all other crimes. im not saying thats ok, im just saying that its not exclusive to rape. 
 
 
 
disclaimer: im not saying "abolish/replace feminism!" nor am i going the whole "feminism is a hate group" way which ive seen some people go down, haha. 
im just saying, i dont see why there cant be more than one equality movement which focus on different things. 
yay for women's rights. yay for men's rights. boo for victim blaming. boo for gender boxes. yay for everyone being treated fairly and the same regardless of their gender.

[Trainer Dave]

You know, I see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, feminism falls flat on it's face when claiming to be out for proper equality, largely because of the very vocal extremists who seem to be taking over the movement. The lovely person above has already put forward a lot of what I wanted to say (nicely done!), the main point being the two branches of feminism. The vocal minority does tend to drag down the movement.

then maybe men will realise, wow, not every woman is mine to rape or use to get my rocks off, they actually have feelings!

Here it is again - the movement frames this problem as being soley due to men seeing women as 'weak'. I can assure you that the vast majority of men do not think that way, the assholes that do are used to vilify an entire gender. It's the same principal as these 'teach men not to rape' campaigns... it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. In this world there are people who will rape and people who won't, in the same way that there are people who steal and people who won't. Males don't need 'educating' to show them that women aren't objects, rape targets or anything like that. No poster campaign is going to put an end to rape. Or to put it another way - do you need to be reminded not to attack people in public?

It's nice to claim that the movement is working towards both gender's issues, but the reality is that it isn't. Men's issues, as said in the post above, are consistently pushed aside as things to 'fix later' and not discuss, while women's issues are given attention. Fixing injustice which impacts women only isn't going to magically remove issues that effect men, either. Everyone wants equality, but feminism as it stands just isn't doing it. If that were truly the intention, there wouldn't be such a hostile reaction to the existence of the Men's Rights Movement in general - both would be working together, no?

[Turner]

oh, and may i add, when men are raped, no man takes them seriously because theyre seen as "weak" for not fighting back. this is another implication that women are weak.

This one doesn't sit well with me, I feel like this once again falls into Daedalus's example of arguing over 'Who is more oppressed', I think to say what I've just quoted is like trying to snatch sympathy or something. Men are raped and nobody takes them seriously, but somehow we're supposed to feel sorry for women.

I think it should be mentioned that nobody mentioned men being raped by women, so you actually jumped to conclusions here. There's a reason why men are not taken seriously when they are raped and it has absolutely nothing to do with what gender raped them.

The problem is absolutely masculinity, but what people forget is that masculinity doesn't require women to be a problem. If a man is raped by a man, he will be seen as weak for not fighting back - it's not implying that male rapists are weak, it's implying that the victim is weak. That's what masculinity is all about - not being 'stronger than women' but being stronger than other men. A man raping a woman isn't necessarily at it's core a misogynistically driven action in every instance, it's often just an extreme show of masculinity. Showing other men "Look how manly I am, I don't need to play the dating game to get my sex, I just take it".

And this isn't strictly male-exclusive either. If you look at your average high school bullying, the weak kid will get bullied by the stronger boys. The girls will reject him because he's a weak boy and nobody will hang out with him because they're scared to associate with the weak boy and what that means for their well-being. Then conversely on the female side it's not necessarily about who's physically stronger (This can actually cause bullying on the female side), it's about who's 'attractive' or not. The ugly/awkward/loner girl gets bullied by the pretty girls. The boys reject her because she's ugly/awkward/a loner and nobody will hang out with her because they're scared to associate with the ugly/awkward/loner girl and what that means for their well-being.

You see the pattern emerging? The problem isn't 'WOMEN' or 'MEN', that's just a cover to distract you from the real issue - society as it is currently is 100% messed up, even as kids we play this struggling dog-eat-dog game of 'Who can fit into the socially acceptable mold the most before they get bullied for not doing so'.

Yes, currently it is indeed a man's world, and men do hold all the cards and maintain the glass ceiling, but it's not because they are 'MEN' and being a man somehow gives you a free pass into this world, it's because of history - it's tradition passed down from the hunter gatherer mentality right through from tribes in the jungle to the start of society, into religion and then into government. Men are just there by default, if it was women it would be women doing the same thing - and no that is not misogyny, that's just a fact.

Thankfully, the glass ceiling is being slowly eroded, but this problem will not end when it's gone and women have all the equal rights in the world because it's a problem with society. It forces us to be things we aren't naturally, everytime someone gives birth to a child that child is being raised and the only way people know how to raise their children is to look at the templates of society - give him a blue room because he's a boy and that's what boys do. Give her a dress because she's a girl and that's what girls wear. These people don't even think about it, they just follow like sheep.

And there is no real guiding hand in charge of 'society', it's all of us. Magazines and media don't dictate society, we do - they aren't trying to instill old fashioned methods of manliness onto us, they are just trying to sell their products - they say women should wear delicate perfumes that smell like flowers while men should wear 'manly' aftershave because that's what people want to hear, those are values they picked up from us to ensure their Chanel No. 5 would sell to the largest demographic. If society did a sudden 180 overnight and said that men should be wearing delicate perfumes then 'the media' would change in a heartbeat, they're not gonna try and debate it with society, we are their paying customers and if they don't like it, they will sink because you can bet that some other company will be re-branding women's goods as 'for men' because they know it'll make them good money and put them on top of the pile.

I ran on a little bit here, but hopefully you get the idea. People's minds need to be opened about this and start seeing the bigger picture of what really causes these problems instead of rooting for 'WOMEN' or 'MEN' like they're some kind of rival sports teams. Nobody is ever going to see eye-to-eye like that.

[Trainer Dave]

The problem is absolutely masculinity, but what people forget is that masculinity doesn't require women to be a problem. If a man is raped by a man, he will be seen as weak for not fighting back - it's not implying that male rapists are weak, it's implying that the victim is weak. That's what masculinity is all about - not being 'stronger than women' but being stronger than other men. A man raping a woman isn't necessarily at it's core a misogynistically driven action in every instance, it's often just an extreme show of masculinity. Showing other men "Look how manly I am, I don't need to play the dating game to get my sex, I just take it".

You raise a very interesting point here. I've never been one of the 'manly manly men' in that sense, and in school that was a big social disadvantage. It's a good thing that feminism encourages these traditional gender roles to be thrown aside, with women encouraged to be 'strong' and independent. However, there seems to be a lot of concern with demonizing masculinity but very little effort in providing a different model. If people want to remove that identity there needs to be a valid alternative.

Yes, currently it is indeed a man's world, and men do hold all the cards and maintain the glass ceiling, but it's not because they are 'MEN' and being a man somehow gives you a free pass into this world, it's because of history - it's tradition passed down from the hunter gatherer mentality right through from tribes in the jungle to the start of society, into religion and then into government. Men are just there by default, if it was women it would be women doing the same thing - and no that is not misogyny, that's just a fact.

You know, I'd actually dispute that we even live in a "man's world". It's true that most 'top jobs' are held by men, but that still leaves the vast majority of men as well as women beneath them. We have an elite that are almost exclusively men from very wealthy families, which often runs down through several generations via inheritance. Perhaps it's worth considering that, rather than men in general excluding women from this group, this preexisting elite are responsible. In other words, the people at the 'top' of our society prefer to keep everyone else below them, regardless of gender. It's a total myth that all men have equal opportunities, let alone women. (Not really related to feminism, just an interesting observation).