Topic: PKMN.net's Tier Lists

[TCoZ]

Smogon's UU tier is based on usage, and so there's a reason Zangoose isn't there. NU isn't balanced yet because there are more pressing things (like the OU test).

To be honest, I wasn't accusing that he didn't know what he was doing, I just felt that he had provided no proof, and so he had no argument and if this topic is filled with posts like that we'll get nowhere.

[Laprabi]

Oh yeah, why haven't we moved Latias down from Uber to OU yet? No time is my guess. D:

Anyone know why Entei is in BL? To me, it's been slightly wasted as a Pokemon, as the only STAB attack that makes use of it's high Attack stat it gets is Fire Fang, and at 65 Base Power most walls will laugh at it. Could somebody tell me why it is in BL? The most powerful Physical Attack I can see it getting is Return, followed by Stone Edge. It can use Calm Mind and Will-O-Wisp though.

More later. *Yawns*

[Brikien93]

I have a few recommendations for the NU tier...

Nidoqueen:

None of it's stats really stand out compared to other bulky pokemon, but I believe nidoqueen would make do just fine in UU. Access to Stealth rock and Toxic Spikes is just one reason for this, albeit T. Spikes is a somewhat wasted move in UU. She sports a decent HP and sturdy defenses, so she can take unboosted hits quite well. She also sports a very impressive offensive movepool, so she has the capabilities of tanking or sweeping. Access to charm is somewhat underrated, but with Stealth Rock and T. Spikes, forcing switches with charm is a simplistic gesture. Other than that, not much else I can really say about her.

Vileplume:

A lower HP than nidoqueen, but with the trade off of higher offensive and defensive stats. Sleep Powder alone turns vileplume into a very annoying pokemon, but it's also got access to double status with stun spore, making it an excellent team player. Albeit she doesn't have a very deep offensive movepool, she has just enough of a pool to pull off a sunny day sweeping set. HP-Fire, Solar Beam, Sleep Powder, Moonlight will turn it not only into a strong sweeper, but with sunny day up it actually has a reliable recovery move in moonlight. Aromatherapy is another decent support move that isn't found as often as most would like, making her more reliable as a team supporter. The combination of sleep powder and aromatherapy is also a very rare combination to find. Shut down a vileplume counter, and quickly recover your own team of any status ailments.

Bellossom:

Essentially the same as vileplume, only with it's special sweeping swapped out for special walling.


I also wanted to mention Torkoal for UU, but didn't really have any compelling argument besides WoW and SR. Fire's not exactly the best typing for a defensive pokemon...

Those are just my own opinionated arguments. Do what you will with them.

[Lucariojr]

My power had to be off when this topic was started...

For me, Rhypherior is not OU material and should be moved down. Sure, it may have incredible attacking stats, but it's special stats are so bad that Grass Knot or Ice Beam can OHKO him. He doesn't even have the speed to compensate for this.

He gets Rock Polish and Solid Rock, along with a 50% boost of S.def in Sandstorm, which is prevalent because of Hippowdon and Tyranitar; not to mention STAB on the quakeslide combo. Why wouldn't he be in OU?

[Lord Raven]

50% boost brings his SDef to near superhuman levels at 210ish!  lolololol

He has like no speed too.  But this entire thing is usage based so your logic is futile.

[Zy]

Rhyperior's Special Stat is beyond stupid. His speed can't even make good of Rock Polish.
But his Defence is so high, he can sponge most physical hits, even Super Effective ones, and often OHKO back.
In fact, in most cases, One-On-One, Rhyperior beats Gyarados as even with one Dragon Dance, Waterfall has a small chance of OHKOing if Rhyperior runs Adamant and 252/252 HP/Atk. After that, Stone Edge is a guaranteed OHKO, even with Intimidate.

[The Wroth]

Cradily isn't OU surely =S

I can't think of any damage percentages off the top of my head or whatever but it poses no massive threat to any team in OU as far as i can see. SDef boost in Sandstorm might be a tad annoying at times but it poses no threat to any team, even if it leads as all it can do when it does so is Stealth Rock which nearly everything can do these days...

[f3raligatr]

Cradily isn't OU surely =S

I can't think of any damage percentages off the top of my head or whatever but it poses no massive threat to any team in OU as far as i can see. SDef boost in Sandstorm might be a tad annoying at times but it poses no threat to any team, even if it leads as all it can do when it does so is Stealth Rock which nearly everything can do these days...

What would you say it'd be then? UU, BL etc?

[The Wroth]

I know very little about the UU metagame therefore i don't know whether or not Cradily would overcentralise it for whatever reason, and as it has been said before, BL is essentially what would overcentralise UU. I'm just adamant that it's not an OU standard Pokemon.

[Zy]

Well, I'm not too sure myself on Craddy's position, but I do know that with 0 Atk EVs and a Neutral nature, Rock Slide is a 2HKO always without Roost.

Swords Dance Cradily can also be a real destroyer, with Cradily's above-par defences, reasonable bulk and Suction Cups.
Posted on: 01-07-2009, 17:01:34More arguments for Zangoose:

With Jolly and 228 Spd EVs and a Scarf/Salac Boost, it outpaces 252 Spd/6 HP Modest Scarfed Flygon and will OHKO with Ice Punch, dealing an average of 121.85%

It should also be noted that Unboosted Fire Punch/Thunderpunch from Zangoose does less to Skarmory than Neutral unboosted Fire Blast - viable on a Specs set.

Zangoose's 90 Base Speed may leave a bit to be desired, but Zangoose obtains access to Thunder Wave for its own support too.

Zangoose's frail defences work in perfect tandem with Counter / Flail / Endeavour / Quick Attack. A desctuctive set if played right.

Zangoose + Swords Dance, Adamant and Life Orb with 252 SAtk EVs using Shadow Claw will do to Relaxed 252 Def/252 HP Slowbro on average 74.11%.
X-Scissor will do 84.77%, if Zangoose decides to use that.
Even Return will do 80.71%.

Keeping the Same Zangoose, we see again Relaxed, 252 Def / 252 HP Steelix suffers 90.40% from Close Combat.
Regirock is the same Defence with a higher HP takes 87.91% still.
Deoxys-Defence even takes 73.68% from Shadow Claw.

Also, Jolly Nature Zangoose outspeeds Neutral Porygon-Z and Lucario, OHKOing Both with a Choice Band Close Combat.

[Agatha]

Dugtrio is not OU, as the metagame has shifted to exclude it. Dugtrio is mainly used to trap and defeat the likes of Blissey, Tyranitar, Heatran, Infernape, Metagross, Rhyperior, Lucario etc. Now let's see, WishBliss and Ice Beam Blissey will outstall and OHKO Dugtrio respectively, while CB Duggy barely 2HKOes in return. 404 HP Tyranitar is not OHKOed by CB Duggy, while Tyranitar will deal heavy damage in return, even with Stone Edge (which can OHKO with a CB). Duggy will also fail to OHKO Metagross and Rhyperior thanks to their massive defense stats and solid rock in the latter's case. Both of which can boost their speed to outrun Dugtrio (Rock Polish Rhyperior is much more popular now, while Metagross can KO with bullet punch anyway), and Metagross will KO with anything but ThunderPunch. Heatran is now essentially always faster than Dugtrio, thanks to scarf's popularity boost, and Scarf Dugtrio simply lacks power to do much. (284 attack iirc) This is on top of the fact that many non-scarf Heatran carry Shuca Berry. Though Dugtrio is generally reliable against Infernape, the threat of Mach Punch, Fake Out, Vacuum Wave and Scarf still exist, the priority moves have all increased in popularity. Electivire has also decreased in popularity, and will often out-speed Dugtrio thanks to Motor Drive. Sucker Punch allows Dugtrio to revenge kill frail psychics and ghosts. Oh wait, Celebi/Cresselia/Dusknoir are too bulky for it to overpower, Gengar, Mismagius and Azelf can all switch out of Arena Trap thanks to levitate, and Alakazam is both uncommon and will often run substitute. Lucario is no longer firing specs Aura spheres all the time, and LO Extremespeed is almost a given, which will OHKO Dugtrio. If Dugtrio isn't looking pitiful already, let's throw in the fact that OU's #1 (Scizor) OHKOes it with both Pursuit on the switch, and Bullet Punch, and that OU's #2 and #3 (Salamence and Gyarados), avoid its Arena Trap, intimidate it, are immune to its STAB, can use it to set up and can OHKO it. Looking good Dugtrio!

Simple fact is, Dugtrio has the worst defenses in OU (besides perhaps Ninjask) coupled with a pitiful base 80 attack. The only thing outstanding about Dugtrio is its speed, which is often negated by the ever quickening metagame's abuse of speed boosting moves and items. The metagame is simply now a place where Dugtrio faces destruction even at the hands of those that it was originally intended to check, let alone the popularity of those that check HIM.

On top of this, Dugtrio's useage has plummeted below OU standards. So why aren't we letting it into the now priority-riddled UU with things like Blaziken running amok? With base 80 attack, it's hardly overpowered. I say that Dugtrio barely even scrapes an argument for BL, let alone OU. Definitely needs revising.

Raikou, also, has never really cut it for OU in this metagame. The incredible popularity of bulky ground types (Swampert and Gliscor, mainly), Blissey, Tyranitar, and even Jolteon/Electivire really hamper it. Along with the additions of stealth rock, Magnezone and sandstorm's omnipresence hinder its ability to set up. It's also a lot 'slower' than it was in advance thanks to the addition of faster Pokemon and Choice Scarf. On top of this, Raikou's useage is not of an OU standard.

I disagree with Dragonite's move to BL, as despite its outclass by Salamence as a mixed sweeper and offensive Dragon Dancer, as a support Pokemon, a bulky Dragon Dancer, and a Wall Breaker, it is incredible. Not to mention, Salamence or not, Dragonite's Offensive Dragon Dance set is an incredible destrucive force, barely (1 base point) less powerful than Salamence, with added bulk. Dragonite's useage is still high enough to warrant an OU spot, and its move to BL would be essentially irrelevant, as BL is not a metagame.

Cradily is definitely not OU, do I even need to explain? Its useage is pathetically low and it does not possess defensive nor offensive powers that would overwhelm UU or even NU (especially since sandstorm is essentially absent in the lower tiers).

Milotic's useage is not of an OU standard, nor are Roserade's, Donphan's, Spiritomb's or Staraptor's. Yanmega or Shaymin either, but they are more controversial.

Deoxys-S is widely renowned as uber, after Smogon's vote, due to its overwhelming supportive abilities.

[Zy]

Sharpedo for UU.
Adamant 252 Atk EVs + Choice Band.
Calcs on NU's Finest.
Waterfall vs Aggron, Relaxed, 252 Def EVs / 252 HP EVs - 48.84% - 58.14% : 96.36% chance to 2HKO.
Earthquake vs Cloyster, +Nature, 252 Def/252 HP - 52.63% - 62.5% : 100% chance to 2HKO.
Earthquake vs Bastiodon, exact same conditions - 54.32% - 64.81% : 100% chance to 2HKO.
Probopass and Torkoal are Steel/Rock and Fire type. They speak for themselves.

Not good enough? Mixed Sweeper Sharpedo's Surf OHKO's Aggron, Steelix, Golem and Camerupt. EQ OHKO's Muk, Ampharos and Relicanth too. Grumpig and Hypno who otherwise wall Sharpedo are OHKO'd by Crunch.

[Agatha]

Sharpedo is much, much too frail to take any sort of hit, while at the same time it's not all that fast OR that powerful. Priority moves, faster sweepers and the UU Bulky Waters all laugh at it. (Also, for the Aggron calculation, 2HKOing something with a STAB Super Effective Choice Banded move isn't actually that impressive, not to mention in that turn Aggron can OHKO Sharpedo or paralyse it.) Sharpedo is also outclassed by water sweepers such as Feraligatr.

Much like Rampardos, Sharpedo is often shafted for something that can actually take a hit.

[Lord Raven]

why are we arguing stuff that's based directly on usage on the grounds of logic -_-

lol post #16666

[HipHop Honchkrow]

Porygon 2 is enabled to defeated Salamence,Gyarados and heatran with A Bold/Calm nature,it should be OU.