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Surely if someone was biologically male but chose to be female identity, they'd just select female and vice versa? I'd argue that including a gender identity would almost be transphobic as it's implying they're not just a regular whatever gender they identify as, if you get what I mean?
But that isn't at all what Nintendo are saying and you're completely misunderstanding the difference between someone talking about reality and an artistic work of fiction.First of all, Tomodachi Life takes place in a surreal fantasy world - it is a work of fiction just as every videogame is, it does not take place in the real world. It does not claim to be a representation of real life or a representation of how real life should be, quite the opposite in fact. For all we know, the archipelago in which the numerous islands of Tomodachi Life reside may all collectively be governed by a law which does not permit same-sex marriage so it wouldn't make any sense for it to be an option.
But then what about ableism? Isn't it offensive that this horrific Tomodachi Island game just assumes I'm not paraplegic and wheelchair bound? This sounds ableist to me and I want a Wheelchair also included in the game, otherwise it's not like real life.
Demanding features to meet the expectations of minorities is a slippery slope because you can split hairs to the nth degree. Of course it would be nice if we could have them; It would be nice if GameFreak brought back the VS seeker, but that doesn't mean that A) They have a personal responsibility to meet my individual expectations and B) It also doesn't mean that I don't want any more Pokemon games until they can give me that feature.
I'd say a deeper rooted problem here is that people are expecting corporations and media companies to be an accurate guide to the public on what is acceptable in society and then complaining when they don't meet those expectations. If you are honestly looking toward multifaceted entertainment corporations like Nintendo to rewrite the book on what is socially acceptable to human society then you are the biggest problem in this equation.
Whether or not same-sex marriage is legal in this fictional world isn't really the point here. In many countries where it is illegal, you will still find people protesting and rallying for its legality. And even though you claim it's not supposed to be a representation of the real world, it's still a game about the interaction between humans. These Miis make friends and rivals in similar ways to the way we do in reality; why should marriage and love be any different? Saying that the game is somehow totally different and wackier than our reality doesn't explain why this particular instance of peoples' lovelife aren't represented.
The difference here is that homosexuality is a feature of someone's identity that they are proud of having, and feel that it is an attribute of their self which should not be removed.
Generally, people are either for homosexuality or against it. There are people who wish to stay out of it, naturally, but for the most part I believe that this is the case. It happens that in this instance, a sufficient amount of people have raised a big enough fuss over this issue that this matter has become one of controversy. An issue on the lack of representation for something such as non-binary gender or the like doesn't get complaints about it because that is a true minority, where there are significantly less people who have a strong opinion on the matter.
People aren't expecting corporations to change what's socially acceptable.
And yes, whether or not same-sex marriage is legal in a fictional world is exactly the point. This videogame takes place in a fictional world thought up by the creator of this work. If same-sex marriage was not on the agenda then it makes zero sense for it to be included. Would you complain if same-sex marriage was not included in Assassin's Creed or Empire Earth? I can only hope you would not.
Lots of people are proud to be disabled or suffer from various illnesses. To suggest that these people shouldn't be included in such a game because they all want to 'escape reality' is an insult.
Your problem is that you are assuming this is some kind of homophobia issue when it is not, and your comments about a 'true minority' are frightful. Once again I revert back to the ableist issue, are you saying that the disabled are not a 'true minority'? Or simply that they do not matter because they haven't had enough media coverage to squeeze an apology out of Nintendo?
Yes they absolutely are. Videogames change with the times much like any form of media. Had Nintendo been making videogames in the 1800s there probably would have been no option to play as a black person as such people were not part of normal society and were in fact, shunned from it. The very fact that Nintendo allows you to create a black Mii today is because black people are openly accepted into society and videogames are a representation of that, you probably wouldn't be able to create female Mii were it not for the suffragettes. In 50 years time (depending on the strength of the movement) I do not doubt that videogames will represent change in our society and will allow same-sex marriage in their videogames where applicable.
The difference is that what people are doing now is the opposite. They are expecting Nintendo to influence society by adding this feature instead of changing society themselves and waiting for the feature to be adapted when it is considered normal.You are literally acknowledging the power a video game company has over society's opinion of normality and asking them to add a feature in order to make that feature socially acceptable. If you cannot see what is wrong with this mentality then I can only pity you and as I said before - you get what you deserve. Progression of homosexual rights within society will crawl forward at a snail's pace if you expect a company that creates videogames to push the movement forward.
And let's not forget, it is Nintendo's discrecion to make what they want to make. They are fully allowed to make a completely homophobic game if they want, or even a heterophobic one. Our feelings and opinions should not control or censor a creative work, that is simply fascism no matter who's feelings are being hurt.
To be honest, you don't see gay couples in Pokémon (when you battle the partners in double battles), but no-one has made a deal of it. It might not be integral to the game, but it's something to draw comparison to. It's all blown a bit far out of proportion, whether Nintendo actually thought about it is unknown to us...but I don't think they left it out just to cause a stir.
Yes I get what you mean and you pretty much just answered the question as to why this is so ridiculous. You can argue either way that including gender selection is transphobic just as much as excluding them could be offensive to people who identify as a particular gender. You really can split hairs on this until every game that isn't a 100% accurate representation of real life is 'offensive' and requires some kind of apology.
DONT LET THE PEOPLE ON STAGE LEFT KNOW THE SCRIPT
I think with the example of Pokémon it's kind of ignored, wrongly or rightly, because they're NPC. Like, there's one thing saying "It just so happens that no one in this world is gay" and saying "No one in this world can be gay".
also i'm fairly sure miis can have any kind of hair - and female miis can have facial hair so it's literally just one will have a higher voice and longer shirt. i could put a moustache on my mii but it's still me. heck, i have 20+ miis on my 2ds that aren't me, obviously, and you don't have to play tomodachi life with YOUR mii, right? :y
1) Tomodachi Life is a game for EVERYONE. Therefore it must be accessible to children.
2) In Japan and the US, same-sex marriage is not legal, whether we like it or not.
3) To include gay marriage into this game would be sending the wrong message - that it is acceptable for same sex couples to marry. It is not. And no, not because of any homophobic reasons but because it is simply not permitted by law.
4) The marriage feature of Tomodachi Life is tied in with a pregnancy and offspring feature.5) Allowing same-sex couples to marry in Tomodachi Life is not as simple as checking a box, it would require the entire marriage mechanic to be re-written in order to either explain why males are pregnant or explain where this baby came from. This is on top of the other aspects of the game that would also have to be re-written in-turn to allow for these changes. If you allowed same-sex marriage in the games that were released in countries where same-sex marriage is legal, it would then raise a number of compatibility issues and hamper the communicative features of the game.6) Same-sex marriage was never 'patched out', it never existed in the first place and was a serious, game breaking bug that led many westerners to believe that it was included in the first place.
7) Because Same-sex marriage is not legal in the US, including such a feature would likely remove the 'EVERYONE' rating of the game, eliminating the primary market for whom the game is aimed toward.
More facts:4) The marriage feature of Tomodachi Life is tied in with a pregnancy and offspring feature.5) Allowing same-sex couples to marry in Tomodachi Life is not as simple as checking a box, it would require the entire marriage mechanic to be re-written in order to either explain why males are pregnant or explain where this baby came from. This is on top of the other aspects of the game that would also have to be re-written in-turn to allow for these changes. If you allowed same-sex marriage in the games that were released in countries where same-sex marriage is legal, it would then raise a number of compatibility issues and hamper the communicative features of the game.6) Same-sex marriage was never 'patched out', it never existed in the first place and was a serious, game breaking bug that led many westerners to believe that it was included in the first place.7) Because Same-sex marriage is not legal in the US, including such a feature would likely remove the 'EVERYONE' rating of the game, eliminating the primary market for whom the game is aimed toward.If you honestly believe Nintendo should spend additional time and money to code a feature into the game that isn't even legal in many of the countries it will be released in and would lose them significant amounts of money just because you personally are offended by the exclusion of the aforementioned feature, then please quote this post and state your reasoning below. Thank you.
I'd say that comparing homosexuality with an illness is also insulting. I never said that they all want to 'escape reality' but merely posited it as a possibility. I'm under the impression that if you gave a blind man the ability to see, or a disabled man the ability to walk, or a deaf man the ability to hear, then they would gladly accept? You can be proud of your disabilities and I assume the achievements that they make despite that, but I don't think they wouldn't hesitate to attain a cure for them. It is in this way that the two situations differ; gay people do not generally seem to be attached to the idea of a 'cure' for their homosexuality. Thus, it seems to me that disabilities are undesirable and that typically people do not want to be represented by a disabled avatar? I'm only talking from the perspective of a healthy teenager so if there are significant instances to the contrary, then I'd be interested in finding out more about them.
I fail to see how this has any bearing on gay marriage being included? It's hardly something that needs to be hidden from kids, and the insinuation that it is is kind of offensive.
Regardless, this is kinda muted by your own argument that it's a fantasy world, and so real law has no bearing.
It should just be a move for the gender check to happen at the baby-making stage, rather than the marriage stage, no?
I have to wonder, would the introduction of same-sex marriage really lead to an enhanced age rating? Other games that have been mentioned in this thread, such as The Sims, have had higher ratings, but is that not because of slightly more suggestive content aside from homosexual relationships?
Then there's the issue of whether the ratings really matter or not. There's the caricature that a proportion of players of the Call of Duty franchise are ironically below the age of 18. They've simply gotten their parents to go and buy the game for them. In fact, I would imagine that most children, with no income of their own so to speak, would be getting their parents to buy for them. I dispute your point, then, on whether Nintendo would lose significant amounts of money from this move in this case. I also stand by my belief that Nintendo would make more money from putting same-sex marriage into a Tomodachi Life 2 than they would lose out from concerned, conservative parents.
b) Even if the rating was increased, there's not necessarily a "significant amount of money" lost for nintendo. The inclusion may actually have the opposite effect.
("Homosexuals have life hard enough, being able to play as a straight character is a form of escape for them"). Do you see how offensive THAT may sound?
You've taken that quote completely out of context of the rest of the thread despite agreeing with it below. 'EVERYONE' is a rating. Taken out your trash at the end about it being emotional - the point is that the audience being children has no bearing whatsoever on whether gays should be included. Are children with gay parents automatically scarred for life because the children can't see gayness? No.The fact it's a fantasy world also means that it makes no sense to include the feature. This argument works both ways, not just your way.If it works both ways, then you can't use it either, and given I was countering your argument that's kind of my point >_>No, absolutely not. I'm not sure how easy you think making a videogame is, but an option like this is not as simple as including a 'If samesex then baby = null' line. Given how tightly the offspring mechanic works with the marriage feature there would have to be entire portions of the code rewritten, along with all the other parts of the game that interact with said code plus all the bug testing, QA etc. that comes with it.Did Hahex not also say he didn't think it'd be reasonable to ask for it added in after release? It may do, it may not. But getting a game rated is time and money, time and money which Nintendo are in no position to be frugal with at the moment. ESRB ratings mention it nowhere! as I've pointed out to you onceThis is a silly non-issue that bears no relevance to the subject at hand. Pretty useless statement? It bears every relevance, Nintendo don't include it based on their belief it will drop sales, obviously if people ignore age ratings then an increase in age ratings will not effect their sales Just because 10 year olds may be playing GTA in their spare time does not mean that Nintendo are going to suddenly throw caution to the wind and allow you to murder a prostitute in Donkey Kong. It doesn't have any bearing on their leniency at all, they play by the rules because it is the most financially secure option to them. If you are marketing a game to kids, it does not make sense to include a feature which could potentially offend their parents and prohibit them from playing the game and thus making a point of sale. I'm sure this scandal may outrage a few gay dads or lesbian mothers, but it's a numbers game and you don't appease the few if it means losing support of many.To use your own words, 'this is a silly non-issue' as the age rating would be very unlikely to riseCitation very much needed for this.At the end of the day, you really don't have a leg to stand on in this argument.Financially it makes no sense to include the feature, not in terms of programming, the time wasted in doing so or the potential response from paying customers.Not now, I would agree, but at the time of release I don't suppose it would make much difference either wayMorally it makes no sense to include the feature. Same-sex marriages are the minority, asking for a game to include the wants and desires of one minority group but not another is basically saying that minority x is more important than minority y which is not only stupid and unfair, it's completely unmeasurable. Last time I checked there was no option to make your Mii travel entirely by wheelchair either, but of course representing same-sex couples in a religious tradition that many people gay and straight don't even care about themselves is far more important, right? But marriage is integral to the game, so if you can't marry the games screwed, but as disabilities wouldn't actually effect gameplay in anyway it's not really a comparable issue.The problem with this argument is that it consistently falls back on emotional-bias and presents the fallacy that only a homophobe could ever oppose such a viewpoint, and as though this wasn't bad enough on its own, when an equally footed emotional-bias argument in the form of able-ism comes into play suddenly those people do not matter?As dragoncat quite adequately put it, there are lots of people who ARE proud of their disabilities. Acting as though all of them want some kind of escape is a massive insult and once again - you could literally put forward that exact same argument for homophobia ("Homosexuals have life hard enough, being able to play as a straight character is a form of escape for them"). Do you see how offensive THAT may sound? You're acting as though pride is some kind of coping mechanism, try going to a gay pride parade and telling everybody that they are secretly ashamed of themselves and see how far you get.And finally people are still dodging the point that Nintendo has absolutely no obligation to include this feature anyway. Nintendo doesn't even have an obligation to be tolerant of any minority whatsoever. They make creative works and it is completely up to them how they make them and what beliefs they do or do not convey within such works. I don't have an obligation to say 'Sorry' if I accidentally slam a door in someone's face, I still do. Nintendo don't have an obligation to say 'Sorry' if they don't include gays in a game, they still do. Both Hahex and I said we don't think it should be included now, but think it's unreasonable to call it unreasonable to have asked