Topic: Are Video Games Art, or Entertainment?

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

beth shakes her cane and yells

[Turner]

honest opinion: i dont think videogames are really enough of a developed/established medium of sorts to be called Art in a traditional sense yet. they're only 30-40something years old? like atm maybe in the postmodernist "look at this as an establishment of people" way or the "look at the relics of the time" way but when you ask what people mean about Art and how it compares to people like Mucha and Picasso it turns into a bit of a mess.

So where is the cut-off age for something to become art? And why is that not arbitrary? I mean, movies are a product of the 20th Century, as is various forms of computer aided art including many forms of music.

but gaming is still developing as a Thing, i mean its still a bit in the Dark Ages re: women (gamergate)

From the facts that I've looked at, whilst Gamergate has been co-opted by your typical right wing misogynistic 4chan user (who still clings to some 2008 era 'Anonymous is legion' idea of the site) they have raised many good points and the criticism from sites like tumblr and the Gawker network has basically failed embarrassingly at refuting many of these points. Once again, I think you're judging without thinking, you're saying "X is associated with a certain type of person I don't like, therefore I musn't agree with X under any circumstances". I don't like a lot of the people who consider themselves 'Gamergaters' but that doesn't mean I can throw their points under the bus, I have to look at them partially and judge them on what they actually are rather than the people who believe them.

i just aint had a good experience with these people at all. anyone who knows anything about how awful the furry community can be once ur in it (the drama and the he-said she-said crap and the Actual Sociopaths) knows what im on about. hilariously i was never even a furry but this is a story for another day

Maybe so, but that's not actually a relevant retort - it doesn't hold any water. If you want to believe that videogames aren't art because you don't like gamers, then fine - it's your life. But coming to the Debate forum and trying to use that as a justification is just going to get torn down because it's completely illogical.

long story short i am not good at expressing myself (plz stop worrying about insinuating i am crazy i have made quite successful peace with that concept during the last few months, its totes ok.)

puk is kind of a Social Refuge from people who dont entirely get on well with Normals for one reason or another (its why i dont try to go TOO hard on ragging on people here anymore, some people here still have gross problems and the lgbt drama in the past was Really Disgusting in how it was handled, but as far as the userbase goes id caution some of you are on here cos they dont really get why society does a thing the way it does or dont quite "fit in", and this is a place where said nerds can congregate, if you get what i am delicately trying to allude to here.) 

I don't know, pretty much all of my friends on this site and all of the moderation team get on with 'normals' just fine. Many have jobs, are in university and enjoy social occasions. If you want to give some examples of members here who you believe don't integrate into society well then feel free but I can't think of any off the top of my head.

like idk if you asked me for an example i'd point to sonic music as an Art Of The Time but thats just such a stupid and dorky thing to admit, i cannot say "i think scrap brain zone is a timeless classic of the ages" without laughing at how ridic i sound, if you get me.

I know I'm repeating myself, but once again - the attitude here is self-conscious before everything else. There's nothing wrong with believing what you've just written up there. If that's what you believe then that's what you believe, statements that might seem controversial or laughable become less so when the people who believe them have no shame in admitting so and are willing to make the case as to why they think so. It'll never stop being 'stupid and dorky' so long as you keep telling yourself that. 

and i do tend to agree with Roger Ebert on the point that people try and attach the Art label onto videogames to somehow legitimise what is a hobby/pasttime in response to people going "lmao videogames are for children????"

I think this sort of argument comes from a very sweeping generalization. First of all, videogames aren't all for children as the demographic of many games is 18+, which is adult territory and I don't believe that all 18+ games are part of some kind of marketing conspiracy either. Secondly, this makes the assumption that everyone who plays games or considers videogames as art are unable to admit enjoying something for children without feeling self-conscious - not so. Take for example Cartoons, are cartoons for children or are they art? The answer is that they can be both. I enjoy some cartoons which are widely considered to be art, I also enjoy cartoons which are nothing more than entertainment for children and I don't have any reservations in doing so.

If you apply this to videogames - is Fireman Sam the videogame for the Nintendo DS art? No, it's children's entertainment. In this scenario, I don't think there is even a mutual exclusivity between the two. Is Pokemon Red art, or is it entertainment for children? It's both. The story is for children, the demographic is for children, but the gameplay is nothing short of artful. The music is art. The Pokemon designs are art, the application of the concept and vision is art.

its like calling hobbies like knitting or lego Art if you get what i mean exactly, in a loose way it can be, but if people drive the "yes! they are art" end of the argument too hard it just kind of smells ever so slightly of a sort of pretentiousness???? im communicating myself badly here but i hope you understand what im getting at.

No, and you probably know what I'm going to say about this too if you've read the rest of the post. I'd argue that the act of knitting and building things from lego are crafts, the outcome is (or could be) art. I have no care for lego, I've just never been interested in it, but it's still a sculpture.

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

beth throws her emergency underwear at a crowd of people

[Lord Raven]

would you consider Game Design a craft?

Yes, why would it not be?

You're bringing up either unsubstantiated claims or saying stuff like this:

if i was asked at gunpoint i'd jabber something about "something which leaves a long lasting impression on you through a creative media that doesnt tend to degrade or become tacky with time" as some sort of non-committed answer

but then that opens up the stage to ideas such as "maybe people personally define Videogames As Art on their own platforms"

like idk if you asked me for an example i'd point to sonic music as an Art Of The Time but thats just such a stupid and dorky thing to admit, i cannot say "i think scrap brain zone is a timeless classic of the ages" without laughing at how ridic i sound, if you get me.

Which either inherently contradicts your argument or it's just getting to the point of personal opinion.  There are people who think Scrap Brain Zone is artistic, and I don't know why that makes you snicker.

Scrap Brain Zone might be cool for some to look at, designed incredibly well, or have good music to add onto it, but the medium itself has many very compelling games that make you think.  Some are rather shallow and some, like for instance Spec Ops:  The Line and even the Metal Gear Solid series have the ability to make you think.  And MGS1/2/3 are still played by a lot of people to this day.

If anything, the medium has evolved as a form of art, and as it stands there's bad examples of art and good examples of art in video games.

It sounds like all you're really doing is saying "this is my personal opinion and I don't want the idea of art to be associated with these nerds who I freaking hate."  Yeah, some of my favorite games have absolute assholes playing them, just look at the Fire Emblem community.  Fandoms in general are terrible.  That is not something that influences what is or isn't art, because a lot of musicians and pen&paper artists can be elitist douchebags in the same way gamers are.




And again, not to be a dick and I don't know if I was just being super subtle or not, but your writing style is just very hard to follow.  I'm not sure of the exact circumstances, because I can also be incoherent at times even when I triple or quadruple check a post, but you need to be able to word things in a way in which people can follow.

[Turner]

so you do honestly believe its "about ethics in videogame journalism"?.

and ur saying that the "other side" to gamergate is tumblr and Gawker which are horrendous and Wrong places as far as feminist discourse goes. i dont wanna sound snippy here but you maybe have to look at what proper feminists are doing (something tumblr and gawker do not do) cos gawker and tumblr are both garbage resorts and you've p much bought straight into the gamers narrative of ad homineming and cherrypicking the counterpoints to gamergate to make their point more "valid" somehow

Actually yes it is about ethics in videogame journalism regardless of how many people claiming to be a part of it do horrible things. I'm not cherrypicking the Gawker network because the very thing that caused it in the first place was a scandal on the Gawker network. The whole thing started because of Kotaku, which is part of the Gawkwer Network.

Secondly, I don't think it has anything to do with 'feminism' nor do I think tumblr is necessarily a bad place for feminism. I have many feminist friends on tumblr who I happen to think are very balanced and sensible. However, it's true to say that the anti-gamergate rhetoric on tumblr is embarassing, the gawker response to gamergate is embarassing and 3 of the most vocal 'feminist' mouthpieces against Gamergate have all embarrassed themselves beyond belief.

im a bit disappointed that there's no mention here of how gamers were sending death threats to any female journalist who dared to point out that gamers are spoilt children at times, but when a male journalist does it - nothing happens.

Once again, I'm not going to deny that there are plenty of misogynists who coopted Gamergate, but it's certainly not the 'greater narrative'.

you're putting words into my mouth here, this was me spinning off about why i dont like Nerds or Nerd Fandoms. admittedly ive gone a bit schizo in this topic but you've been reading my other posts, right? why do you still think that my sole point about "videogames? art" is "no, cos most nerds suck" ive developed past that a bit

unless you're trying to trap me in some sort of Generalisations Logic trick im having trouble understand what you're doing here

I'm not putting words into your mouth, the only argument you've given against videogames being considered art is because you think that it's associated with a certain type of gamer you don't like. That's a generalisation. It's not a 'logic trick', it's exactly what you've put across in your posts.

stop being oblique, you know exactly what im getting at.

well, im not sure if you do exactly cos the response to what i said probably shouldn't be "xhanatos! name and shame!" cos come on dude. thats rude. you know exactly what i mean when i say we all have pokemon as a bit of a Social Haven. i literally said im trying to be delicate with this concept.

No I don't know what you're getting at and I think it's rude in the first place that you would literally come out and say:

this is an awkward topic to bring up cos puk is kind of a Social Refuge from people who dont entirely get on well with Normals for one reason or another

This is the debate forum, if you're going to make a claim like that then back it up with some evidence or examples. I can give you plenty of examples that suggest the opposite. This forum is one of the most socially adjusted Pokemon communities on the internet, certainly nothing like what you seem to be suggesting.

i like your gusto in the "dont feel stupid and self conscious doing anything!!!" but the Shame thing happens for a kind of Social Skills reason. like can you honestly say you would stand up in front of your class and say "i love pokemon!" and do a show and tell about ur EV trained pokemon? unironically?

Plenty of people if not everybody at work knows I like Pokemon, knows that I'm obsessed with it and knows that I got Alpha Sapphire at a midnight release. All of them are too old for Pokemon and have kids of their own but they all have their own quirks and hobbies - sci-fi B movies, World of Warcraft etc. It's just about being an adult, people have got better things to do than to point the 'nerd' finger around.

ok how's this: im very proud/secure of the stuff i do in my own private time and at home (one thing im very adamant on) but there is some of it i wouldn't be caught dead doing in public/in front of others at uni/in my workplace. is this an acceptable way for you to view how i do these things? "me" at home with close friends who accept me for who i am, and the public "me", and how i kind of want a bit of a divide between the two.

That's a bit different from your beliefs though. I'm not expecting you to rock up at work in a Pikachu costume, but when you're literally changing your beliefs because of these social barriers then the only victim is yourself. You don't have to go around parading that videogames are art to believe it, you don't even have to bring it up. 

in that strawmanny way that ends up happening in these arguments im going to play devils advocate a little here and ask why you Defended videogames as not for kids, instead of going "eh, so what if its a kids game." like you did later on in this paragraph. especially since you bring up pokemon later on which is literally a franchise for kids.

What I'm saying is that 'videogames' as a generalised medium are not specifically 'for kids'. They're not in the same ballpark as Barbie or Action Man. However, they can have different demographics. I'm not saying at all that kids videogames are not artistic, I'm saying that ANYTHING can be artistic and anything can be made purely for entertainment purposes, no matter which audience it is aimed at.

Anyone who tries to use the 'Videogames aren't art because gamers don't want to admit they have a child's hobby' is completely wrong. There is plenty of art/demographic overlap and most gamers have no problems admitting they play children's games.

thats why i groan loudly when this argument pops up.

Once again, this is the debate forum. You don't have to reply if you don't like the subject matter.

would you consider Game Design a craft?

It depends which aspect of it. Game design is not game development. Game design from an ideological aspect is an art, physically storyboarding is a craft. Conceptualising difficulty curves or gameplay mechanics is an art, implementing them in pseudocode and putting in the mathematical formulas to meet these mechanics before they reach the development stage (for example, damage calculating etc.) is a craft.

Game Development is largely a craft, writing elegant code can be artful. There are so many shades of grey.

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

eh, im throwing the towel in.


can i ask whether this is a "talk about and discuss Issues and have a nice chat" debate forum or one of those weird "Debate Class" type of debate forums where we all do it literally and by the book. you know, with all the Rules and Opening Statements and Contrapositive of the Implicit Notion stuff and No Derails Allowed. 

because if its the latter then ugh ive made a huge mistake getting involved in the first place lmao cos i honestly dont know whats going on here, i thought we were seeing eye to eye a little re: Art but those replies just made me wonder if either a) im in a worse state than i thought or b) you're not understanding what im typing or c) we're playing towards completely different things here


 sorry if this looks a little flouncey but i need to bow out here for my own good.

 

And again, not to be a dick and I don't know if I was just being super subtle or not, but your writing style is just very hard to follow.  I'm not sure of the exact circumstances, because I can also be incoherent at times even when I triple or quadruple check a post, but you need to be able to word things in a way in which people can follow.

sorry but you are actually being a bit of dick here. i'll lay it out for you because you're not getting the Delicate Hints but on top of being a literal spacko/dyslexic (i have posted about this before) like im gonna quote choice bits of myself here and hope you Get It

i just admitted i was Actually Crazy a bit and im just sorry it makes my typing and prose incomprehensible and an Effort to read at the moment while they take 4 billion years to Assess me and get me recovering

im a bit Mental rn and totally aware of it but in that 'i dunno what to do about it other than wait for treatment' way

unfortunetly for me that means makin terrible disjointed schizo posts on the internet when i can only sleep for a handful of hours at a time

i apologise for Last Night Me's raucous and loquacious opinions

[Lord Raven]

can i ask whether this is a "talk about and discuss Issues and have a nice chat" debate forum or one of those weird "Debate Class" type of debate forums where we all do it literally and by the book. you know, with all the Rules and Opening Statements and Contrapositive of the Implicit Notion stuff and No Derails Allowed.

I'm not sure, because I definitely thought it was the former.  I don't think Turner was making anything formal.

It doesn't have to be a formal debate to point out logical fallacies, because I'm really not seeing much of an explanation behind why you don't think it's art.  You keep saying it's laughable how it can be considered art, you keep saying things like "do you honestly think this" or "do you honestly think that" and trying to word it in a way that makes the notion sound stupid, or just complaining about how poisonous some gaming communities are.  These really aren't anything to do with the subject at hand; you're entitled to the idea that it's not a form of art, but if you're going to get into some sort of discourse about it, you better be ready to use some facts to back than up rather than some wishy-washy "I don't really think the idea works."

Then stuff like this:

i like your gusto in the "dont feel stupid and self conscious doing anything!!!" but the Shame thing happens for a kind of Social Skills reason. like can you honestly say you would stand up in front of your class and say "i love pokemon!" and do a show and tell about ur EV trained pokemon? unironically?

I don't see where the situation would come up, and I'll bite a bit by saying that the majority of people I know, IRL and online, are well aware that I'm a Pokemon fan.  As for the rest, that's some sort of exaggeration, I'm not gonna rave about Pokemon to people who don't care.

Finally, can you summarize why you just don't view video games as art or at least what your view is?  I think this is getting lost in the off-topic-ness, because there are sincerely times where your point is just lost when you talk about poisonous communities and something about "stupid nerd crap."

sorry but you are actually being a bit of dick here. i'll lay it out for you because you're not getting the Delicate Hints but on top of being a literal spacko/dyslexic (i have posted about this before) like im gonna quote choice bits of myself here and hope you Get It

my b, I understand the dyslexia but I didn't know it affected your posts that much.  I just know that sylar and some others I've seen on the internet had a similar way of writing and it made me wonder if it had something to do just style or what.  They're not incomprehensible, it just requires some digging sometimes.

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

t doesn't have to be a formal debate to point out logical fallacies, because I'm really not seeing much of an explanation behind why you don't think it's art.  You keep saying it's laughable how it can be considered art, you keep saying things like "do you honestly think this" or "do you honestly think that" and trying to word it in a way that makes the notion sound stupid, or just complaining about how poisonous some gaming communities are.  These really aren't anything to do with the subject at hand; you're entitled to the idea that it's not a form of art, but if you're going to get into some sort of discourse about it, you better be ready to use some facts to back than up rather than some wishy-washy "I don't really think the idea works."

if you want to know my honest and slightly less manic Opinion then i think we have to concretely nail down an agreed objective standard of Art before we can go "are videogames art", which is the fundamental problem. there is no centrally agreed idea of Art we can even base this on, imo.

i tend to see art as a Sustained Effort on a craft of some sort producing a nice piece of something whether its a jumper with a Custom Design or a painting or a sculpture etc. an effort of labour and love in a medium of some kind. which counts stuff like Good n Neat Indie Games and well done Kids Games but too many indie people are way too pretentious and try way too hard when making their "arty videogames" and it shows.

i honestly dont know why i wrote a ton of garbage about sonic and Assembly and all that crap, and im loathe to commit to an opinion any harder than the above cos i will admit i dont even know what i consider art myself these days.

weird nerd grudges for people who are militant about videogames aside i honestly think the question is fundamentally flawed from the get-go. no-one can agree on what art is, so asking "are videogames art" is a shaky premise before its even started, if you get me. ive just done this argument with nerds before and it didn't end well hence why i was falling down the stairs blathering to myself in this topic.

this is about as simple as i can write it without going off on a really long ramble again so i hope this makes sense.

my b, I understand the dyslexia but I didn't know it affected your posts that much.  I just know that sylar and some others I've seen on the internet had a similar way of writing and it made me wonder if it had something to do just style or what.  They're not incomprehensible, it just requires some digging sometimes.

the dyslexia doesn't help a lot but nah i ought to come clean and tell you things have taken a twist towards the bipolar/prodromal schizophrenic over the last few months hence why i am not making a lot of sense AND typing 100000000 words. i suspect its schizoaffective (bipolar and schizophrenia's awkward lovechild) but we'll see when i get Seen by the consultant.  schizo stuff is a pain cos it will usually Get Worse in your 20s and with little warning and very quickly, as it kind of has done with me, haha

its a long boring story which i dont want to go into here but its been a bit of a weird few months and i dont wax lyrical about all this cos it doesn't make for funny posting on puk dot net. i was hinting around it cos everyone got their own ideas about ~##~#~#~crazy people~#~#~##~, hence my ramblings about "dont you keep certain things sequestered away from the public eye tho?" cos i kind of have to.

whats annoying is NHS stuff moves awfully slow but i REALLY wish they would hurry up and get me Seen and get me on some sort of Proper Meds or whatever cos i just wanna get my life back


anyway worlds tiniest violin solo over, thats p much why i am just sort of going a bit Mad here in this topic a little and malfunctioning, haha.

getting into a big discussion about videogames and art was a really bad idea especially when i am Manic and Neurotic as hell and have had Bad Experiences in the past with this sort of thing
so i p much do apologise for my weirdness here, im still learning how to deal with this whole thing lmao

[Lord Raven]

It's fine, I was just trying to get a feel for what you were thinking, because debates have this awful tendency to just completely diverge into a bunch of unrelated tangents when we're really ultimately trying to argue one general sentiment.

It sounds like the indie games that you don't like, from your perspective, are just not good art.  There are a bunch of AAA games that fall flat too.  The same thing with all other forms of art, you'll like a few things out of the myriad of things available.  I can't stand like 90% of all music but it's still art, I just don't see it as good art whereas someone else might.  something something eye of the beholder.  I wonder if your arguments with them were about specific games and, in particular, attacking indies (because many people out there - especially the "pretentious nerd" types - out there are heavily in favor of anything indie and don't like mainstream AAA titles).

its a long boring story which i dont want to go into here but its been a bit of a weird few months and i dont wax lyrical about all this cos it doesn't make for funny posting on puk dot net. i was hinting around it cos everyone got their own ideas about ~##~#~#~crazy people~#~#~##~, hence my ramblings about "dont you keep certain things sequestered away from the public eye tho?" cos i kind of have to.

Not the thread for it, but this reminds me of the story of the NFL player Brandon Marshall, who was considered a cancer to any team he joined until some point not long before he was traded to the Chicago Bears.  He "came out" as having borderline personality disorder, and it's pretty crazy to see fans take a dump on him for using that to "justify" his actions or whatnot without realizing that he isn't "justifying" his actions so much as explaining them (because there's no way you can justify them - you can only understand why they happened).  It's crazy how much people actually trivialize things.

I thought your typing was a quirk for a while but now I have a much better understanding.  I won't bother you about this again and I hope everything turns out well.

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

It's fine, I was just trying to get a feel for what you were thinking, because debates have this awful tendency to just completely diverge into a bunch of unrelated tangents when we're really ultimately trying to argue one general sentiment.

It sounds like the indie games that you don't like, from your perspective, are just not good art.  There are a bunch of AAA games that fall flat too.  The same thing with all other forms of art, you'll like a few things out of the myriad of things available.  I can't stand like 90% of all music but it's still art, I just don't see it as good art whereas someone else might.  something something eye of the beholder.  I wonder if your arguments with them were about specific games and, in particular, attacking indies (because many people out there - especially the "pretentious nerd" types - out there are heavily in favor of anything indie and don't like mainstream AAA titles).

yeah, no worries, ive got a weird and tempermental taste in games which is half the reason im such a dick about it i reckon and why when i find a good game its like "oh." when ive completed it 

like hilariously i said it somewhere in one of my replies but im attempting to piece together a few games myself so ive been trying to keep an eye out for Good Game Mechanics etc. and i just get really critical whenever im playing and can't just enjoy a platformer for a platformer's sake "the pacing of incentives in this level is not keeping me sustained at all" "this tutorial level is trying to give me plot at the same time as im trying to do a complicated command, this is poor planning" "this is a nice control system but i wish the game author would stop pointing out how clever he is, you present it to the player and let them interpret it" and so on

if i were coherent i'd probably love to be a playtester but dont get me started on how i feel about playing videogames for a career lmao ive already gone off on one about Nerds

Not the thread for it, but this reminds me of the story of the NFL player Brandon Marshall, who was considered a cancer to any team he joined until some point not long before he was traded to the Chicago Bears.  He "came out" as having borderline personality disorder, and it's pretty crazy to see fans take a dump on him for using that to "justify" his actions or whatnot without realizing that he isn't "justifying" his actions so much as explaining them (because there's no way you can justify them - you can only understand why they happened).  It's crazy how much people actually trivialize things.

I thought your typing was a quirk for a while but now I have a much better understanding.  I won't bother you about this again and I hope everything turns out well.

thank u, and also thank u for understanding

i am just sorry it came out here and in this way haha. ive edited my posts cos im just kind of embarassed about letting Mad Me out the cage and gettin into this mess in the first place

i also agree re: the NFL dude, mental illness stigma is the absolute worst though and it makes me so upset when people make fun or go "URGHHHHHHHH WEIRDO!" "CRAZY" etc. when its obviously not their fault, and it just makes me want to wave a wand and make these people have a night where they're like, convinced everyone is spying on them and watching them and have planted bugs in their house and crap, just so that they see what its like.

ngl tho the way things have gone the last few years i think when im better im gonna have to go into mental health and try to do my bit to reverse the Stigma of mental illness

i think its why i try to backseat Tough Love bully people on here cos i see them doing things that got me laughed at by people and made fun of and dragged thru the mud and im like "NOOOOOOOOOOO save urself! u still have a chance!" but i keep forgetting that a pokemon forum probably aint the place for unasked Xhanatos Life Guidance, and also some people just gotta learn the Nerd Lessons for themselves???

but yeah im just waiting on appointments and with luck i'll be seen by people soon and get new meds so here's hoping! either that or i just go "sod it" and have my brain cut out and thrown in a lake but yes, thank u again for being decent about it.

[Turner]

It doesn't have to be a formal debate to point out logical fallacies, because I'm really not seeing much of an explanation behind why you don't think it's art.  You keep saying it's laughable how it can be considered art, you keep saying things like "do you honestly think this" or "do you honestly think that" and trying to word it in a way that makes the notion sound stupid, or just complaining about how poisonous some gaming communities are.  These really aren't anything to do with the subject at hand; you're entitled to the idea that it's not a form of art, but if you're going to get into some sort of discourse about it, you better be ready to use some facts to back than up rather than some wishy-washy "I don't really think the idea works."

Yes, basically this. The Debate forum isn't intended to be robotic or like a court trial, but the reason this place was created with stricter rules on debate was because Debates originally on RR were trainwrecks that would split the community and perhaps worse, spread the notion that the popular opinion was the true one, be it strawmanning or "I'm right because I'm offended".

if you want to know my honest and slightly less manic Opinion then i think we have to concretely nail down an agreed objective standard of Art before we can go "are videogames art", which is the fundamental problem. there is no centrally agreed idea of Art we can even base this on, imo.

weird nerd grudges for people who are militant about videogames aside i honestly think the question is fundamentally flawed from the get-go. no-one can agree on what art is, so asking "are videogames art" is a shaky premise before its even started

This is fine. I don't think many people here would disagree with that, in fact I think almost everyone here has basically echoed this sentiment in their own ways. As much as we can't quantify art, we all feel that we know it when we see it.

i think its why i try to backseat Tough Love bully people on here cos i see them doing things that got me laughed at by people and made fun of and dragged thru the mud and im like "NOOOOOOOOOOO save urself! u still have a chance!" but i keep forgetting that a pokemon forum probably aint the place for unasked Xhanatos Life Guidance, and also some people just gotta learn the Nerd Lessons for themselves???

I think the problem with this is that it assumes that everyone who is either proud of their hobby or doesn't have any problems in making it public has lived a sheltered life and has never faced severe bullying for doing so. Not everyone who has been bullied, assaulted, dragged through the mud and made fun of is automatically scared into secrecy or trauma, many people here have already had the 'Nerd lessons' beaten into them many times over and still don't let it dictate their lives - some of the older members had already had it before Pokemon was popular. It's not really tough love, it's just preaching to the converted by assuming the identity of the sort of person they've had more than enough experience with and do not like. It frankly comes across as trollish.