Topic: PKMN.net's Tier Lists

[Sino Morior]

"Can I ask - what is the actual issue you have with the current metagame?"

The absolute lack of variety in battles and usage tiers as a whole.

[Enigma]

The lack of variety in battles isn't a result of the tiering system. I mean, I recall you saying some time ago that the VGC Tournament has much more variety - this is because it is doubles and would, if it were played more often, follow the same route as any game like Pokemon - and divide itself into tiers according to usage (which would be directly affected by the Pokemon's strength.)

Surely a usage tier is more desirable over a 'statistic' tier (which is what I think you would prefer..?) because they don't truly reflect how the game should be played - take Arcanine, for example. Its stats are pleasantly all round and its BST would suggest it would go into OU - but it would be decimated there.

Furthermore, there is no actual barrier stopping Arcanine from being used in OU - it's simply that it's too crap to compete, so it stays in its own tiers.

I'm still not quite sure how, if you could click your fingers and make it happen, you would revolutionise the metagame so that it would be more varied?

[Afro-Disiak]

Tim, he's a troll. There's no point arguing with him because he is just winding us up with his nonsensical reasons the metagame being stagnant.

[Sino Morior]

"if it were played more often, follow the same route as any game like Pokemon"

Too bad they're completely useless. We can have Luvdisc and Spinda in OU if enough people troll.



"Surely a usage tier is more desirable over a 'statistic' tier (which is what I think you would prefer..?) because they don't truly reflect how the game should be played - take Arcanine, for example. Its stats are pleasantly all round and its BST would suggest it would go into OU - but it would be decimated there. "

ITT: You not reading what I say :/ Based off of stats, combos (moves/typing), etc.


"Tim, he's a troll. There's no point arguing with him because he is just winding us up with his nonsensical reasons the metagame being stagnant."

"Stagnance is cool broham, ignore the guy who doesn't like fighting the same teams all the time"

---

Also, let's use usage tiers in a fighting game like Street Fighter IV. Ken sees the most usage online so he's the best clearly. They all use a flow-chart to play (like using the same team with the same moves, etc, aka OU), but the most usage, so it's still the best.

[Enigma]

Too bad they're completely useless. We can have Luvdisc and Spinda in OU if enough people troll.

I do see your point, but that's a hypothetical argument - seeing as it hasn't ever happened, I can't see how that's a valid point.

And anyway, surely a statistic based tier system would result in a far more stagnant metagame because it wouldn't be fluid - with usage, the variety of Pokemon changes as different pokemon are used to counter others - Scizor flies up to counter Salamence, Heatran and Rotom see more usage and HP Fire Gegar becomes a standard - the way the metagame is at the moment is far from stagnant.

ITT: You not reading what I say :/ Based off of stats, combos (moves/typing), etc.

I am reading what you're saying, I just might be misunderstanding you, because I don't really know where you're going with the argument ^^;

Also, let's use usage tiers in a fighting game like Street Fighter IV. Ken sees the most usage online so he's the best clearly. They all use a flow-chart to play (like using the same team with the same moves, etc, aka OU), but the most usage, so it's still the best.

So...are you saying that's good or bad? Because the way I'm reading that, it just seems to be arguing in favour of usage tiers. Ken is the best ergo he is used more, therefore he is OU. Stats = Usage = same tier.

Yeah, I'm still not sure what it is exactly you're arguing ^^;

[Awkward Squirtle]

I think what he's saying about street fighter is that theyre all exactly the same, but everyone uses Ken cos he's cool, so he's obviously better than everyone else, despite being exactly the same. Problem with this argument is that pokémon are NOT all the same

[HipHop Honchkrow]

When will you do a tier for the 5th gen pokemon - Not trying to make this tier any more complicated?

[Liam]

It'll be a while until we see how the metagame pans out, mister.

[Webby2]

I'm actually going to agree with Dan here; let's not raise up to his posts and see how else this topic can pan out.

As for the Gen V matter; I think it's going to change the metagame a lot from what we've seen. There are a lot of new, powerful and quick Pokémon as well as a lot of sluggish ones, so mixed with the old Pokémon I can see Trick Room teams with stuff like Power Trick Shuckle get a lot more usage. High speed teams as well might work well; I actually wouldn't be surprised if Infernape keeps up a high usage despite Ken's new Speed Boost because it doesn't really need a turn to set up (well, not sure in terms of the new Pokémon) which means that it can stop a move from working quite easily. I can see it becoming a lot more tactical.

But that being said, this is only a few ideas being drafted in because it's still too early to say for sure; we just have to wait until it pans itself out and trends become developed. Teams will be experimented with initially before a pattern comes through, and even then, as Tim said it'll be fluid in changing. I can't see it staying as a set standard of tiers because of other ways of countering Pokémon etc.

Either way, it'll definitely be interesting to see and I'm tempted to stay with the competitive scene =P

[Sino Morior]

"I think what he's saying about street fighter is that theyre all exactly the same, but everyone uses Ken cos he's cool, so he's obviously better than everyone else, despite being exactly the same. Problem with this argument is that pokémon are NOT all the same"

They are all the same, because only 6 are used.


"Either way, it'll definitely be interesting to see and I'm tempted to stay with the competitive scene =P"

If we actually get tiers, perhaps. Usage tiers have no business with banlists.

[Agatha]

I hope you realize that tiers are what allows variety in this game. OU wasn't created to exclude the majority of the game, because I'll think you'll find that the most exclusive metagames are the ones which use the tiers of 'weak' Pokemon.

If there were no tiers, and Pokemon was just Pokemon, every team would be Kyogre / Palkia / Dialga / Groudon / Mewtwo / Arceus because it would be impossible to use any other Pokemon without losing to a 6-uber team. But the fact is that we DO have tiers which means that if you do want to bust out your Crawdaunt or Golem, you can go play NU and not have to worry about being crushed by the inhabitants of the upper tiers.

In fact, OU is actually the 'most liberal' tier other than Ubers, because only some 20 Pokemon are banned and you are free to use whatever you wish. Sure, statistics would indicate that there is only a real variety of some 25-40 Pokemon in OU, but if you have a problem with that, there is nothing stopping you from using your Beedrill in OU, and if you don't like the quality of OU Pokemon, there's always UU and NU for ya.

And to top it all off, can you even suggest a single viable alternative to the current tier system? If you think that you can think of a better system than the one which was created and refined by hundreds of people who understand the game better than you do, I'd really love to hear it.

[Zy]

We've started 5th Gen Tiering on Smogon, and already things like Drizzle Politoed, Inconsistent (regardless of Pokemon) and whatnot are coming under the hammer.

Now, I'm still questioning if we actually use our own tier lists, or if we should adopt Smogon's altogether, since we actually do rigorous testing. Of course, there are even some things I disagree with in Smogon, but my post isn't meant to put this list under the microscope,

but how are we going in terms of Gen 5 with this?

In any instance, I think we should be considering Doryuuzu. Assuming our banlists are the same from Gen V (i.e. Chomp, Mence, Shaymin, and Manaphy still banned) we shouldn't have many problems.

Also, how are we handlin Dream World?

[Enigma]

*sigh*

this generation seems to have introduced...difficulties with tiers. Back in the day, it was literally "is this Pokemon broken? Yes. Uber. No? OU. =D"

NOW we've got Pokemon broken SOLELY because of their ability, other Pokemon banned because of their Dream World abilities, whole metagames disregarding Dream World abilities.

First off - the Dream World. Seeing as the game isn't out in England yet and I've only taken a mild look at this generation. However, I can't see why we'd completely disregard ALL Dream World abilities.

I am a little concerned at how happily people in Smogon are throwing everything under the BANNED hammer. I mean, Shandera's a suspect, Doryuzu, now Politoed!?

It seems like a huge effort to make our own tier list. That's my main reason for wanting to leech Smogon's tiers.

Also, it makes life simple - we won't be saying "oh which tier is this team being rated according to, PKMN.NET, Smogon's or other?" At the moment, we have a general concensus what is uber and what is not.  (In Gen IV I mean.)

Doryuzuu - remind me what is so fearsome about the cute little mole. I mean, in Generation IV, a very fast, very powerful physical sweeper had walls come in and wall it. What's different this time round? We seem to be super happy to ban all the offensive Pokemon at the moment and I really don't like it ;;

[Lord Raven]

you could set it up with tyranitar and make hell of it.  idk, think of infinite sandstorm and look at its abilities.  i can't come up with a solid argument cause i have no clue what to think, but apparently it's comparable to abomasnow setup with all the ice times in UU except the problem is just one Pokemon being affected by it as opposed to a plethora affected by sandstorm.

idk "banlist" tiering is weird as hell, and frankly smogon are the experts so, if you want to make a case, argue against them or something.  they test this stuff a lot too, so it's not like it's unfounded.

[Ledyba]

lol politoed NU and then Uber.  Amazing what one little tweak can do to a Pokemon.

I find it intresting that sleep is being considered to be banned, this gen is quite different from the others on the face of it.