Topic: PKMN.net's Tier Lists

[Ino-chan]

I agree with Zy on moving Porygon-Z down. It`s bad enough that it`s pre-evo is used more often, and I believe that Porygon-Z would do very well in UU/BL.

[Zy]

Considering it's less than amazing speed, (90 base iirc) combined with it's fragility and weakness to the most common UU type (Fighting) makes it lacklustre. Even more so when you realize that outside of a Specs Tri-Attack, P-Z won't be hitting those mega-bulks very hard.

Adaptability Timid Specs Porygon-Z damage calcs on the following UU;
Tri-Attack versus Calm 252 HP / 4SDef Regice; 36.81% - 43.41%
HP Fight versus above; 31.87% - 37.9%
HP Fight vs 252 HP / 156 SDef +Ve Registeel; 35.16% - 41.76%
HP Fight vs 252 HP / 252 SDef +ve Umbreon; 36.04% - 42.64%
Tri-Attack vs above; 41.12% - 48.73%
Tri-Attack vs 252 HP / 4 SDef +ve Uxie; 54.8% - 64.97%
Tri-Attack vs 252 HP / 4 SDef +ve Milotic; 51.27% - 60.41%
Tri-Attack versus 252 HP / 0 SDef ~ve Claydol; 35.49% - 41.98%
Dark Pulse Versus above; 70.99% - 83.95%
Tri-Attack versus Max HP / 0 Sp.Def ~ve Gallade/Gardevoir; 52.35% - 62.06%
Tri-Attack versus Max HP / 4 SDef ~ve Chansey; 27.41% - 32.39%
HP Fight versus above; 32.1% - 37.78%

not really all that amazing, is it?
and Nasty Plot numbers aren't stellar either.
Also fun how everything listed above bar Chansey can KO Porygon-Z easily.

[Enigma]

All of the Pokemon you listed are 3HKOed by Porygon-Z. Porygon itself will not be OHKOed by any of them (outside of random Choice Banded Super Power Registeel etc). So none of them are true counters to P-Z, as they'd need to be able to OHKO him back -

Turn 1: They switch in, SRocks Damage, take a Specsed Attack.
Turn 2: P-Z attacks again, they attack.
Turn 3: P-Z KOs them.

Not a proper counter. Uxie could Yawn it out, but that just puts the problem off for a little while. Milotic is not help with Recover as it's 2HKOed by Specs Tri Attack.

I think P-Z should stay firmly in BL. Would any of those listed Pokemon be able to switch in safely against a Nasty Plot Tri Attack?

[Zy]

I think P-Z should stay firmly in BL. Would any of those listed Pokemon be able to switch in safely against a Nasty Plot Tri Attack?

P-Z never was in BL. According to Smogon, it's always been in OU, but I'd rather it move down to UU.

also, I'm fairly certain anything that takes less than 50% from the calcs I posted can switch into a Nasty Plotted Attack of the same respect.

[Enigma]

What calculator are you using Zy? I'm using Metalkid, but it's taking so long to use...

Anyway, I just ran a Modest Porygon-Z Life Orb Nasty Plot Tri Attack against a 252 HP / Sp.Def Regice, and I got 61.0% - 72.0%

It can't switch in, and even if you switched in against the Nasty Plot, I don't think Regice could OHKO or incapacitate (outside of T-Wave) P-Z while it 2HKOs.

And that's surely the strongest Special Wall in UU...I think? I don't know the tier very well.

[Zy]

I'm using Steinberg's Offline Base Stats calculator.

Regice is NU, according to Smogon.
Registeel is UU and that resists Tri-Attack, but HP Fight will likely crack it.

Here are more calcs anyway, assuming Life Orbed, Modest and Nasty Plot
Tri Attack versus Max HP / 6 Sp.Def ~ Shuckle; 50% - 59.02%
HP Fight versus above; 21.72% - 25.82%
Tri-Attack versus Max HP / 6 Sp.Def +ve Regice; 69.23% - 81.87%
HP Fight above; 60.99% - 71.98%
Tri-Attack versus Max HP / 168 Sp.Def ~ Probopass; 22.53% - 26.54%
HP Fight; 156.79% - 185.19% OHKO
Tri-Attack versus Max HP / 156 Sp.Def +ve Registeel; 45.05% - 53.02%
HP Fight; 68.98% - 81.28% guaranteed 2HKO
Tri Attack vs Max HP / 216 +ve Mantine; 88.62% - 104.79%
Tri Attack vs Max HP / Max +ve Umbreon; 78.17% - 92.39%
HP Fight; 68.02% - 80.2%

I really don't think UU has much to fear from the Viral Duck.

[Enigma]

Doesn't have much to fear? All the Pokemon you listed are 2HKOed!

Not one of the Pokemon you listed can OHKO Porygon-Z with anything on any of their standard sets. Well, aside from Explosion, and blowing a Pokemon doesn't really make them a reliable counter. =P

Each Pokemon you suggested as a 'counter,' none of them outspeed Porygon-Z and none of them can reliably incapacitate it without exploding.

You'll end up having things made specifically to counter Porygon-Z - and when that happened with Garchomp, it was moved up to Ubers. Porygon-Z should stick in OU.

I think UU has a hell of a lot to fear from Porygon-Z. Its Sharpen set is also exceedingly dangerous, and while it's a gimmick in OU to take down Blissey, a mixed set (Sharpen / HP Fight / Return / Dark Pulse) would break UU in half.

Porygon-Z for OU.

[Zy]

Too late guys. Porygon-Z is now UU along with Cresselia.

UU will be fun from now on.

[Enigma]

...Cresselia. That's worse than P-Z.

[Webby]

I'm not convinced either should be moved down to UU, especially Cresselia. She's the perfect check for so many teams and I've become a lot more wary of her. I don't see any reasons for her to be moved down, since she's one of OU's best walls and pretty much defines defense within competetive battling for me. I don't see why we should move it down just because they have.

[Enigma]

It's not so much that Cress will no longer be used in OU, I'm more concerned about how it'll dominate the UU metagame.

Pokemon are moved up from tiers because they dominate the one below it. In the same way, Pokemon are moved down tiers because it's thought that they won't dominate it.

Well I'm afraid I think that Cresselia will be on every UU team. CroSelia sets are going to run amok, with very little being able to shut it down. Rest / Sleep Talk / Ice Beam / Ice Beam (or Charge Beam). Think of how difficult Crocune is to shut down in OU. Now think about how you'd do that to a Pokemon with higher HP and defences across the board. Yes, Cresselia has one more weakness than Suicune, but this doesn't outweight the fact that even without Sp Defence boosts, Cress will be a monster to take down, with Rest and Sleep Talk.

Thank god I don't play UU.

[Afro-Disiak]

It's actually all just based on useage - Cresselia wasn't used enough in OU, so it's dropped down to UU, and will be tested (separately from PorygonZ) to see if it's a suspect to go back up to BL. Lots of people are already claiming it's too much to handle in UU, but there are a couple of good checks, like Absol and Drapion.

[Agatha]

Egh. Porygon-Z will never dominate UU simply because like 25% of the tier outspeeds and OHKOes it. If it uses Scarf, it's easily walled.

[Afro-Disiak]

My favourite PZ set of this phase of UU has been:

PorygonZ@Life Orb
Download
Timid Nature [+Spd -Atk]
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
-Nasty Plot
-Tri Attack
-Hidden Power Water
-Recover

Basically, I used it as a lead.. Download usually gave me +1 SAtk straight up against the likes of Uxie, Arcanine, Cloyster, Hippopotas, Rhyperior.. sometimes against the frailer ones like Ambipom/Electrode depending where they put their remaining 4 EVs. It is also interesting to note that a Download boosted Tri Attack is more powerful than an Adaptability boosted Tri Attack by 12%. Anyway, turn 1 is usually Nasty Plot, since most leads aren't about killing stuff and focus more of setting up. So then you have a +3 PorygonZ and you basically just spam Tri Attack! PZ isn't that frail really (85/70/75), and can actually take a hit with just 80 EVs. 176 Speed allows it to beat +nature  base 80s, of which there are LOADS in UU, so I don't need to straight up max it. HP Water is the best coverage move to with when using only two attacks, as it hits everything in UU for neutral except Sheddy, and OHKOs Steelix looking to come in on Tri Attack.

[Agatha]

P-Z never was in BL. According to Smogon, it's always been in OU, but I'd rather it move down to UU.

also, I'm fairly certain anything that takes less than 50% from the calcs I posted can switch into a Nasty Plotted Attack of the same respect.

Porygon-Z actually was BL for a period of time, before the UU split.