Topic: Feminism, Fedoras and SJWs on tumblr - Where Do You Stand?

[Webby]

... how is your definition of a "real man" any different to what Turner was (probably) referring to? You've just reiterated what you've said has been "disrupted".

The issue I have is with the concept of a "real man" in general. The fact that I have no interest in any of the things that you mentioned doesn't make me any less "real", or any less of a man. It's the whole "typical bloke" image that makes me think I'm neither typical or a bloke.

[Milsap]

It's demographic based. The man fuel for man stuff, man crisps, have you got a WKD side? etc are all aimed at the 18-30 group who are more likely to be found (in the advertiser's mind) in the pub on a Saturday afternoon watching the football and having a bit of 'banter' rather than someone who'll be at home reading a book or doing the gardening.

[Turner]

It is demographic based, same as any sexist advertising, but I just find it tacky and ridiculous. I don't understand what's so 'manly' about sitting at a pub chugging pints and talking about football and eating crisps. The majority of those people are bigots and tools and I'd rather they didn't act as though they are the gold standard of the male species in the UK.

[SirBlaziken]

Same for here in America.

[Liam]

Primarily, I think the whole nice guys finish last drivel is just a scapegoat people use to justify why people don't want to have a relationship with them or have sex with them. If you bend over backside and lick a girl's feet she's probably not going to go out with you. She has no reason or obligation to have a relationship/sex with you just because you're letting her use you and there are many reasons why she's not going to go out with you other than "girls are b***hes who love douchebags nice guys finish last wah wah wah!". If she's not physically attracted to you, or she thinks you're dull or she actually doesn't think she can ever see you more than a friend you should respect that. I've been friendzoned before, it wasn't nice, I moved on, but I don't have the right to complain that she rejected me because I was too nice, because that's dumb.

I don't know much about the whole SJW "movement", but from what I have read it just seems plain ridiculous. If you want to change society, then go and bloody do something about it. Complaining and spewing hatred fuelled pish via your tumblr account isn't going to change the world, it just makes you look stupid.

Millitant feminism pisses me off. The approach they have just stinks of degrading men rather than advancing rights and equality for women, which, again, isn't going to solve any problems. If anything they're just alienating the cause of feminism and making people (in "society", but that word seems to mean bugger all) more reluctant to actually try and make a change. Traditional feminism is a just cause, but some of the problems that have been outlined I believe have been blown out of proportion, but maybe I wouldn't know because I'm a white cis male who lives in London and I'm therefore more privileged than everyone else. Suck it.

It is demographic based, same as any sexist advertising, but I just find it tacky and ridiculous. I don't understand what's so 'manly' about sitting at a pub chugging pints and talking about football and eating crisps. The majority of those people are bigots and tools and I'd rather they didn't act as though they are the gold standard of the male species in the UK.

I'm probably interpreting this wrong, but what makes people bigots because they like to have a pint and a packet of crisps at the pub? I don't think that's a fair assumption to make. Unless you're talking about the advertisers trying to imprint that behaviour as being "manly" then I understand.

[Turner]

I'm probably interpreting this wrong, but what makes people bigots because they like to have a pint and a packet of crisps at the pub? I don't think that's a fair assumption to make. Unless you're talking about the advertisers trying to imprint that behaviour as being "manly" then I understand.

Yes that's primarily it. What the 'bigot' thing also refers to is the fact that these adverts target bigots. I'm obviously not saying everyone who goes to the pub and watches football is a racist hooligan who beats their wives, but they make up a large part of that demographic. That advertising also reminds me of some of the comments Danny Dyer made about slashing a woman's face so nobody else will want her. The fact that some twisted advertisers will encourage and support the myth that these types of people are 'real men' makes me sick. I don't agree with a 'real man' concept no matter who it targets, but to target THESE people and make them seem as though they are normal and doing something right only encourages misogyny and bigotry.

[lets all go out for some frosty chocolate milkshakes]

well i wasn't expecting general cognizance of the concept of present-day patriachial values this soon into the topic thats for sure

im disappointed i wanted drama

edit: nevermind

[Laprabi]

Woohoo debate time. I'll add my two cents if I can even remember what the topic is about lol.

In my opinion, the notion that just by being nice to a girl means she's obliged to date/have sex with you is stupid. If she thinks you're boring, too nice or not fun to be around she won't have any sexual feelings toward you. This is especially true if you act awkwardly around her, because awkwardness is an immediate turn-off. There is however a difference between awkwardness and not saying anything; awkwardness as I'd describe it is stumbling over your words every time she tries to have a conversation with you, or asking meaningless questions as a means to make conversation. Women are people too, just have a conversation with them. I used to be socially awkward, until I realised that awkwardness makes you seem like a fool, now I can have conversations with women who I previously wouldn't have associated with, it's all a matter of having something to talk about.

Back to the topic of the friendzone, being in the friendzone is, in my opinion, only painful if you are madly in love with the girl you've been friendzoned by, and if it's an obsessive, one-way crush you try to make her like you, and you can't force that sort of thing.

For the record, I laugh when I see these guys in fedoras on Tumblr and the like complaining about why the 'girl of their dreams' doesn't give them the time of day. It's funny how they can dedicate so much energy into liking a person. It's not attractive when you're basically throwing yourself at a girl, because she sees you as the easy option, or she simply doesn't find you attractive, and that could be for a variety of reasons. And as ever, there is more to life than women.

Now for feminism. Oh joy. I despise feminism (especially the militant kind) because they campaign for 'equality' but still want all the benefits being a woman gives them. Like maternity leave, divorce court equality (which is currently biased heavily in favour of the woman), equal punishments for the same crimes and the time honoured 'you can't hit me I'm a girl!' thing. On the subject of divorce courts, why is it that men are so harshly punished by them? A long time friend of my mothers split up with his wife a few years ago now. She wanted EVERYTHING from him, hell she even wanted to get him extradited back to Britain (this was in America), now how is it that that is condoned by the law if women are supposedly 'oppressed' by men? And this isn't the only example of a man's life that was nearly destroyed by divorce. A quick Google search will find you more examples of this.

Back to the crimes thing, rape cases are heavily biased in favour of the woman. If this wasn't true, why is it that a woman raping a man is not viewed as badly as a man raping a woman? And don't forget about all the female child molesters out there, as opposed to the only ones the media ever tell us about, the male ones. Also in cases of statutory rape, how if the female is of age and the male is not, the woman doesn't get punished as harshly as if it was the other way around? I would go on but if we were all truely equal, then you would get punished the same for the same crime, regardless of your gender.


Also I will now do what everyone, regardless of what they say, will do, which is I will ignore everyone with a different viewpoint and only take notice of people that back up my own. You do this too, everyone does.

[Sebastian Moran]

Also I will now do what everyone, regardless of what they say, will do, which is I will ignore everyone with a different viewpoint and only take notice of people that back up my own. You do this too, everyone does.

are you relatively new to debating or

[Laprabi]

are you relatively new to debating or

No I just like to state the obvious.

[sylar]

Now for feminism. Oh joy. I despise feminism (especially the militant kind) because they campaign for 'equality' but still want all the benefits being a woman gives them. Like maternity leave, divorce court equality (which is currently biased heavily in favour of the woman), equal punishments for the same crimes and the time honoured 'you can't hit me I'm a girl!' thing. On the subject of divorce courts, why is it that men are so harshly punished by them? A long time friend of my mothers split up with his wife a few years ago now. She wanted EVERYTHING from him, hell she even wanted to get him extradited back to Britain (this was in America), now how is it that that is condoned by the law if women are supposedly 'oppressed' by men? And this isn't the only example of a man's life that was nearly destroyed by divorce. A quick Google search will find you more examples of this.

except for divorce court, please list ten scenarios in which men are oppressed.
i bet u anyone can name five scenarios in which women are oppressed for every one of the scenarios u name.

[Milsap]

Maternity leave is a given though. Because you've carried that thing around for nine months, given birth and then you need to look after it. Babies have a bigger bond with the mother than they do with the father. Hence longer maternity leave for mothers and only 2-3 weeks for paternity leave.

[Pam-the-Lamb]

 Damn it, I've got more questions than debating... stuff?

 I dunno, we did some stuff in Media that could come into feminism or sexism and stuff.

 Like, one of the arguments was about how photography in the media will often edit pictures of women and give them features that aren't natural, hold on, I've got a link to something that shows it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U

 4Chan is pretty bad for discrimination though There's usually no point in mentioning if you're a woman, otherwise you will get harassed and told to leave unless you post pictures of yourself. Then the people who will stand up for you (and some people will) end up just getting harassed with you for trying to "white knight". I would say that it's due to the pack mentality that people develope and the fact that they are all posting as anon.

 Did Danny Dyer really say to slash a womans face so nobody would want her? That's pretty messed up, fair play. Then again, Danny Dyer is a prat who always thinks he's the 'ard man but absolutely drops a brick when talking to murderers and drug dealers. Just watch his show about the worlds hardest men and count the times when he complains about how scary things are.

 Is this the sort of stuff that's studied in sociology?

[Trainer Dave]

except for divorce court, please list ten scenarios in which men are oppressed.
i bet u anyone can name five scenarios in which women are oppressed for every one of the scenarios u name.

While I know this is a really late reply, your attitude perfectly demonstrates the key problem I see with modern feminism. It's this whining over who is "more oppressed" which spoils any legitimacy the movement once had. While it's claimed that the more radical feminists are looking for total equality, arguments like this are consistently used to marginalise and ignore issues which effect men. In my eye, progress will be made by focusing on both sides of the coin at the same time. The current trend of demonizing masculinity and portraying men as oppressors of women is disturbing in the sense that both sides harm eachother. That said, the "Men's Rights" movement has exactly the same flaw, but the open hostility towards that campaign by many online feminists really doesn't sit well with me. If feminist groups (at least in my experience) are often violently opposed to dealing with men's issues, why do they believe they have a right to complain when men try to make a movement of their own... Both groups just irritate me, nonetheless.

A perfect example of the almost biased image of the gender debate presented by some brands of feminism is the complaint about the 'glass ceiling' - I.E. that women are kept out of top jobs and board rooms, etc. There are many reasons for that (not just male oppression, seriously), but I'd like to point out the complete disregard for what some call the 'glass floor'. That is, while women struggle to get into the highest paying jobs, men are disproportionately found in the absolute lowest paid jobs. To add to that, males also make up an oversized proportion of homeless people, and fall victim to the majority of workplace accidents and deaths. Let's not even mention suicide rates. Why isn't this even talked about? Simply because nobody cares. Men aren't supposed to be 'oppressed' as it goes against the media image that radical feminism seeks, so it's covered over and shouted down with cries of 'misogyny'.

So to sum up briefly, I see a need for a more legitimate gender equality movement which can work towards removing stereotypes and expectations which impact both genders. This will be easiest if we work towards getting it into schools, and by that I don't mean 'gender studies'. I mean teaching kids about how to respect others and how to work towards a fairer system. For example, that means men not being taught to see women as objects, and women not being taught to see all men as potential rapists. One side does not oppress the other, societal gender roles result in inequalities which disadvantage everyone.

[sylar]

While I know this is a really late reply, your attitude perfectly demonstrates the key problem I see with modern feminism. It's this whining over who is "more oppressed" which spoils any legitimacy the movement once had.

sorry if it came across that way, i mostly get bothered when people say IM NOT A FEMINIST, I HATE FEMINISTS BECAUSE THEY DONT FOCUS ON MENS ISSUES
which leads on to

So to sum up briefly, I see a need for a more legitimate gender equality movement which can work towards removing stereotypes and expectations which impact both genders. This will be easiest if we work towards getting it into schools, and by that I don't mean 'gender studies'. I mean teaching kids about how to respect others and how to work towards a fairer system. For example, that means men not being taught to see women as objects, and women not being taught to see all men as potential rapists. One side does not oppress the other, societal gender roles result in inequalities which disadvantage everyone.

feminism does this,,, lol
feminism is for breaking down that wall that portrays women as weak sex objects, and stops things from being seen as "girly" therefore looked down on by men.
children are taught at a young age that playing with dolls if youre a boy is wrong, playing with cars and superhero stuff is wrong if youre a girl. feminism is trying to take down the idea that any boy playing with dolls isnt a ~pussy~ and any girl playing with superheroes isnt ~unladylike~ and this is where your "children need to respect each other" comes into play. they cant respect everyone if theyre taught constantly that one gender doing something uncharacteristic of their stereotypical gender norm is Wrong and should be made fun of. once feminists prove that boys playing with girls toys is Okay and girls playing with boys toys doesnt make them any less of a woman [or lady!], children will learn to respect those who do those things at a young age instead of making fun of them.

also, women are taught to see men as rapists. men are not taught not to rape, women are taught how not to get raped. men are taught to see women as objects because the media portrays them all as braindead bimbos with tits whose only jobs are to hang off a Strong Male Lead Characters arm as an accessory.  feminism is also trying to remove this general "rule" in media. its trying to show that women have feelings and ambitions and potential in any field - yes, even mechanics, even beauty products, they have interests in varying things - so maybe men will stop seeing them as objects. if we get enough strong female characters - maybe not ponies, who, coincidentally, have been monopolised by men who claim feminism doesnt help them because theyre still made fun of for being ~girly~, but thats another story haha - then maybe men will realise, wow, not every woman is mine to rape or use to get my rocks off, they actually have feelings!

oh, and may i add, when men are raped, no man takes them seriously because theyre seen as "weak" for not fighting back. this is another implication that women are weak. men are not taken seriously because theyre raped by the weaker sex. you see where im going with this? feminism removes the idea that women are weak, some women are strong and dangerous, and men who are raped or abused by their girlfriends or wives are not weak. once feminism gets through the idea that woman are just as strong as men, we will see men being taken more seriously when they report these crimes.

feminism will also end slutshaming, which would help in cases such as the stubenville case we all know and love so much. when that girl was raped by high school boys, she was a slut, she didnt look after herself, she lost friends and was bullied for being a slut for being raped, and the men in that case were all sympathised with. oh, theyre so talented, such a shame, such a terrible tragedy, these boys raped a girl and had so much potential, what a shame.  feminism also removes the idea that women participating in any sexual activity are any less of a woman, or anything close to a slut. women who are raped by men are demonised, and white males get off with a "oh, he had so much potential!". men are not taught to not rape because theyre sympathised with when they do rape, or even murder.

what you and most people dont ever seem to understand is that feminism is not the movement for women to have rights and men to be thrown in the gutter, its a movement to provoke proper equality by balancing out gender roles. you say you want a movement that would promote proper equality? thats what feminism is.